Why More LPM is Less (with no EFIE mods).

[BoyntonStu]

Why More LPM is Less (with no EFIE mods).

I have read posts and have viewed videos of experiments where adding Hydroxy with no EFIE mods actually reduced MPG.

It always troubled me.

I may have accidentally figured this out if my timing estimates are in the ballpark.

The piston in a normal 4 stroke ICE is going up and the ignition spark is fired 10* BTDC.

Assume that the air/gas mixture is completely burned by 10* ATDC.

You add a little Hydroxy and due to its flame speed, the air/fuel/hydroxy mixture burns quicker.

Everything is burned after TDC but before 10& ATDC. More power and increased MPG would be the result.

Now add more Hydroxy.

What if the resulting mixture caused the burn to be too quick?

If it burned before TDC the engine would lose power.

Is this a feasible explanation?

BoyntonStu

[JojoJaro]

Yes, I believe that is exactly what's happening.

Also the ECM is mocking up your fuel ratio. The ECM could also be responsible for your MPG loss, not just the timing.

[BoyntonStu]

Yes, I believe that is exactly what's happening.

Also the ECM is mocking up your fuel ratio. The ECM could also be responsible for your MPG loss, not just the timing.

Thanks.

At below some low LPM figure, the Hydroxy should be invisible to the ECM and only flame speed affected.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Thanks.

At below some low LPM figure, the Hydroxy should be invisible to the ECM and only flame speed affected.

BoyntonStu

I also have to agree with both points here, it makes sound sense to me to build an electrolyzer for as much LPM as you can and then back the production right off via a weak catalyst concentration and then slowly add catalyst until you start to lose mpg, then back off slightly again.

This would then allow you to achieve gains whilst considering your options for approaching the ECU mods.

[BoyntonStu]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

I don't understand your request.

BoyntonStu

[JojoJaro]

Thanks.

At below some low LPM figure, the Hydroxy should be invisible to the ECM and only flame speed affected.

BoyntonStu

I am unsure if there is a level low enough for the ECM to not recognize. The reason I say this is the moment you introduce HHO, no matter how low, that will immediately affect the o2 concentration of your exhaust, which the o2 sensor can immediately detect.

Now, what the ECM does to respond to a change in o2 detected at the exhaust is a different matter. How the ECM reacts could determine whether you lose or gain MPGs.

[redneckgearhead34]

I find that most vehicles with high mileage > 100000 miles run too rich anyways. So i am going to build and EFIE anyways.

I also believe high mileage gains can be made from an EFIE with larger amounts of hydroxy

[Painless]

I don't understand your request.

BoyntonStu

Whoops! That was wierd.. looks like I hit the wrong button on my blackberry?

[mario brito]

Why More LPM is Less (with no EFIE mods).

I have read posts and have viewed videos of experiments where adding Hydroxy with no EFIE mods actually reduced MPG.

It always troubled me.

I may have accidentally figured this out if my timing estimates are in the ballpark.

The piston in a normal 4 stroke ICE is going up and the ignition spark is fired 10* BTDC.

Assume that the air/gas mixture is completely burned by 10* ATDC.

You add a little Hydroxy and due to its flame speed, the air/fuel/hydroxy mixture burns quicker.

Everything is burned after TDC but before 10& ATDC. More power and increased MPG would be the result.

Now add more Hydroxy.

What if the resulting mixture caused the burn to be too quick?

If it burned before TDC the engine would lose power.

Is this a feasible explanation?

BoyntonStu

Very feasible !

As you guys probably already know, my car has a small engine ( 1.2L V4 60HP ). No mods, just HHO.

With 100ml/minute : 20%+ gains.
With 250ml/minute : 30%+ gains.
With more then 250ml/minute : MPG start to go down again.
With 500ml/minute : No gains.

As I increase production from 250ml to 500ml, the "pinging" sound from the engine becomes higher.

I'll try to get my car to a mechanic, to adjust my BTDC timing with the HHO running, to see if I can get better results.

Thanks

[RMForbes]

Mario,

Try adjusting your initial timing to 4 degrees BTDC when the gas generator is installed and operational.

[mario brito]

Mario,

Try adjusting your initial timing to 4 degrees BTDC when the gas generator is installed and operational.

Thanks :)

It's already installed and running very well for several weeks.

One more detail :

I've disconnected my unit for a week, to see if gains would remain, or would get back to the usual values before HHO. It got back to the usual values. So, I'm sure that all gains are due to the HHO.

Could you please explain why that "4 BTDC" value ? Is there a formula for that, or just experimentation results ?

Thanks

[Stevo]

I think what he means is you should retard your base ignition timing to 4 deg BTDC according to a normal 10 deg BTDC that you may be running right now. You haven't mentioned the car make and model or engine code, so it's hard to know. Seems like he meant this as a general rule of thumb.

[Stevo]

Why More LPM is Less (with no EFIE mods).

I have read posts and have viewed videos of experiments where adding Hydroxy with no EFIE mods actually reduced MPG...

Now we are talking some sense here! I think that ignition timing has almost everything to do with the quantity of gas you can efficiently utilize. I have mentioned this a few times here, but think you have nailed this down pretty well.

It might also be safe to say that using premium grade gasoline vs. regular grade gasoline might warrant less need for ignition retardation since regular seems to burn quicker.

[Roland Jacques]

Why More LPM is Less (with no EFIE mods).

I have read posts and have viewed videos of experiments where adding Hydroxy with no EFIE mods actually reduced MPG.

It always troubled me.

I have found that this is not ture for MOST cars. I'm guessing 25 % increase MPG and 50%-60% see no gain tat leaves Maybe 15%-25% that actualy loose MPG. ( going buy all that ive read)



I may have accidentally figured this out if my timing estimates are in the ballpark.

The piston in a normal 4 stroke ICE is going up and the ignition spark is fired 10* BTDC.

Assume that the air/gas mixture is completely burned by 10* ATDC.

You add a little Hydroxy and due to its flame speed, the air/fuel/hydroxy mixture burns quicker.

Everything is burned after TDC but before 10& ATDC. More power and increased MPG would be the result.

Now add more Hydroxy.

What if the resulting mixture caused the burn to be too quick?

If it burned before TDC the engine would lose power.

Is this a feasible explanation?

BoyntonStu


I agree.
But most cars have electronic ignitions. They well automatically retard timing when they sense a knocking. So these cars don’t have bad timing issues.

For car without Electronic Timing Controls. Retarding 4-5 degrees may be a good rule of thumb. But ideal timing is almost impossible to find. Here is a problem for cars without ETC and the standard HHO system. As your RPM go up, your Ratio of HHO to air/gasoline changes, so the advance curve will be way off. At Idle 800 RPM a retarding of 8 degrees may be perfect. At 3000 RPM 2 degrees retarding may be more inline.