Smackbooster

[David Hamilton]

Has anyone tried the smack booster. If so what were the results as far as mpg and output.

They have the plans here
http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

[wingnut]

Hey man, not sure what your talking about. However, get a chance let me know what you think about aluminum! ie; Q & A thread!?

[gheuett]

Working on one now. Looks like my bench tests are about .6 liters/minute at 15 amps (not great but I think enough to test it in the car). I have most of my electrical work done and in the next few days I'll be installing in my 2003 Saturn Vue. I will use 2 O2 extenders before I do any of the more expensive electronics - PWM and EFIE.

I pretty much followed the instructions other than I made a separate bubbler. I'll update as I have more info on the progress.

Thanks,
Gib Heuett

[Ronjinsan]

Very nice, easy design to get going with! Will give you good production if you put in the effort and get good plates. I run 2 of them and they work great. I have mine connected to manifold though!

[gheuett]

Got the Smacks booster installed today. The car started up fine and I have driven around 35 miles so far. The neighbors have come out of their bunkers and everything is back to defcon 5.

I did notice that my amperage was considerably higher than when I tested - right around 30 amps so I probably need to back off on the KOH - about 1.5 TSP/ 2 liters of distilled water is my current dose.

I'll probably go several hundred mile clips & refill to get some initial mileage marks.

I'm guessing the ECM will take over at some point and start pumping more fuel but I'll give it a few fill-ups and get some mileage figures before I go to the next step of O2 extenders.

I will keep posting updates.

Thanks,
Gib

[rmptr]

We'll watch for your report, Gib.

Best

[porkchop]

I am using one, for the most part. See the picts on bubbler water getting into electroliser in general discussions. Last test yeilded 15 mpg on the highway. using sodium hydroxide, 1 teaspoon, it runs 20 amps.

[gheuett]

Here is my first check in and I need some guidance. When I first installed, my current draw was around 25 amps. After three days and a little over 200 miles, it was pulling only 5 amps and producing very little gas. I added 1 tsp of KOH. When it started back up, the stronger production resumed and the draw was again 25 amps. Within one short trip out, it was back down again to about 7/8 amps.

Any theories as to why production is falling off? I can pretty much tell by my mileage that it has had no impact + or -.

Thanks!

Gib Heuett
Smacks Booster
Saturn Vue - 3.0 Liter

[wljohns]

Are you missing any water from your bubbler? It sounds like your electrolite is being diluted.

[gheuett]

Doesn't seem to be. The recent drop came quickly. I added one tsp of KOH and the draw went to 25 and in the course of a short 3 mile trip it had dropped again to single digits.

I did some additional reading on the Smacks and I'll try dumping the electrolyte and change it pretty often up front. It sounds like the plates do some conditioning and maybe that affects the solution.

Thanks,
Gib

[Ronjinsan]

You should check for leaks! Do the old pressure test, with power on the bottle hold your thumb on the outlet tube. I throw a bit of water on the bottle too, ithelps to spot leaks quickly!

[Johnh]

It may be a bit of crap in the cell neutralizing the KOH or maybe something you used in the cell. Now you have had it running a while give it a good wash out and refil with good rain or distilled water and KOH. If the KOH has been breaking down there will be some junk in the bottom make sure to get it all out.
I would use only plain water in the bubbler as well, some people have been saying run a weak acid in the bubbler to neutalize the caustic, buts that's exactly what it does if a little gets sucked back as the cell cools.
Johnh

[gheuett]

Good ideas all the way around. It pressure tested well before I installed but something may have unhinged when I put it in or as it ran. I'll also clean it out as well.

Thanks for the tips - will report back!

Gib

[gheuett]

Y'all were right on the money. I gave the booster a good cleaning and tightened up the hardware. During the testing and install, I put on and removed the connecting cables a number of times and that loosened the bolts that went through the cap to the plates. My plumbers tape on the main cap was a bit ragged also. The long and the short was it was leaking. I reinstalled it airtight and it ran 10 amps cold up into 25 when it warmed up. Hopefully that will hold and I can start to get a better test.

Thanks Everyone!
Gib

[tbhavsar]

You should check for leaks! Do the old pressure test, with power on the bottle hold your thumb on the outlet tube. I throw a bit of water on the bottle too, ithelps to spot leaks quickly!

I did not know about this....good technique.

I normally drop the whole unit in bucket filled with water and if any leak exist, it will give bubble.

[Ronjinsan]

I like your style Tushar....thats certainly one way of doing it, just my cables are a bit short LOL

[Stratous]

I use my swimming pool to test for leaks. Put the entire unit in the pool and fill it up with air.

[Ronjinsan]

What no internal pressure.....just air?

[Dewayne]

I read most of the page about the "Smacks". He states in there to take a center punch and put dimples in the plates.

I was wondering if I took an electric engraver (adjusted to heaviest impact) and ran it over the plates on both side and then sanded them would work.

I read that some ppl flatten their plates in a vice. I would think this would embed iron in the plate. So I'm going to flatten mine with a plastic head hammer with plates resting on a piece of oak, or maybe in a vice with the plates between two pieces of oak. Then take a torch and go over the plates to get the wood/plastic off them.

I also read where some one was adding baking soda to their Smacks. I thought BS was a no no.

[Stratous]

What no internal pressure.....just air?

I use my air compressor, normally to 70 psi

[cougar gt-e]

Any theories as to why production is falling off? I can pretty much tell by my mileage that it has had no impact + or -.

Thanks!

Gib Heuett
Smacks Booster
Saturn Vue - 3.0 Liter


Saw where you got it fixed. Have you calculated impact on economy?

Packer Fan

(Brett a Backup? WTF?)

[gheuett]

Here is the latest..

Tuesday night I tightened it up and reinstalled. I filled up the tank. As I drove, the mileage seemed to be ahead at normal points like 3/4 and 1/2. I'm now below 1/4 and it seems a little ahead but I won't know until I fill up today. It may be a difference but I'm not sure if it is much. I pulled the system again yesterday and found it had developed a small leak plus again my current draw was down around 5 amps so I'm not thinking that the production held up during this tank.


Ronjinsan is so right about leaks. I think the Smacks Booster design may have some weaknesses in that department - the cap (plumbers tape is always iffy) plus the tight area you have to work on the cap as far as your other hardware tends to shake things loose. These things are as bad as plumbing in your house!!

My intention is to keep learning on this one until I get it right and then take all the lessons and go build one that won't take a lot of babying.

The other possible variable is the car's ECM. Because I'm flying blind on that end, I don't know if the car has figured out what we have done and is compensating on the Oxygen sensor. One question I have for the crew out there is this - If the car is now overcompensating, would a air/fuel gauge now show that the mix is rich??? I would like to know some indicator of the car's reaction before I do anything else.

I'll post my mileage change shortly after I fill up today. I was tempted to fill up earlier in the test but I thought I need to keep it consistent with what I normally do which is run it down to close to empty.

Thanks!!
Gib

[justaguy]

ghuett, I heard that permatex works really good for the leaks.

[Dewayne]

I'm building a smacksbooster type generator.

I have checked Lowes and HD and can only find 1/4" barb fittings.

Is 1/4" fittings and tubing ok or should I keep looking for 1/2"?

[countryboy18]

the lowes by me has 3/8 tubing and the 3/8 barb fitting.

[Stratous]

1/4 is perfectly fine as long as your vehicle can accept 1/4.

[Dewayne]

1/4 is perfectly fine as long as your vehicle can accept 1/4.

For the truck i'm planning on drilling a hole in the air intake (after MAP) and feed the HHO in at that point.

Also if I install a bubbler do I need a back flow check valve?

[daveczrn]

For the truck i'm planning on drilling a hole in the air intake (after MAP) and feed the HHO in at that point.

Also if I install a bubbler do I need a back flow check valve?


I would recomend it. I would put it inbetween the the bubbler and generator. the bubbler helps with stoping the backfire into the generator, but why not just be that much safer.

[Dewayne]

I would recomend it. I would put it inbetween the the bubbler and generator. the bubbler helps with stoping the backfire into the generator, but why not just be that much safer.

Seeing that the check valve will be beyond the point in the system where there should be any water, can I use a brass check valve?

[porkchop]

Very nice, easy design to get going with! Will give you good production if you put in the effort and get good plates. I run 2 of them and they work great. I have mine connected to manifold though!
On the website (smakbooster) it says to NOT put it on the manifold. He said it will lower the boiling point of solution and cause water vapors to enter your manifold. I also had problems with the bubbler cracking when on the manifold. Also, when the engine is running at higher RPM's, the vacuum is less than when idling, causing the opposite effect (vacuum wise) you want on the unit.
I had mine on the manifold for awhile, it ran good,(engine still "learned" then my engine started to "learn". Lost MPG's I thought I had gained. Moved it over to the air intake, and can hardly notice anything.
So the bottom line was/ is on my vehicle, the manifold worked better.

My next question is, Is my O2 sensor wide band or narrow band. I installed 2 spark plug non foulers, and it did not help. Now I want to try an EFIE. I heard they will not work on wide band O2 sensors. I looked, on the Bosch site (the kind I have in mine), and it appears that 4 wired ones are not wide band, while the 5 wire ones are. I have a 4 wire. I want some reassurance from someone with experience that an EFIE will work on a 4 wire O2 sensor. 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6cyl is my vehicle. Also, would extending (plug non fouler)the second O2 sensor, located downstream of the Catalytic converter help?

[Dewayne]

On the website (smakbooster) it says to NOT put it on the manifold. He said it will lower the boiling point of solution and cause water vapors to enter your manifold. I also had problems with the bubbler cracking when on the manifold. Also, when the engine is running at higher RPM's, the vacuum is less than when idling, causing the opposite effect (vacuum wise) you want on the unit.
I had mine on the manifold for awhile, it ran good,(engine still "learned" then my engine started to "learn". Lost MPG's I thought I had gained. Moved it over to the air intake, and can hardly notice anything.
So the bottom line was/ is on my vehicle, the manifold worked better.

My next question is, Is my O2 sensor wide band or narrow band. I installed 2 spark plug non foulers, and it did not help. Now I want to try an EFIE. I heard they will not work on wide band O2 sensors. I looked, on the Bosch site (the kind I have in mine), and it appears that 4 wired ones are not wide band, while the 5 wire ones are. I have a 4 wire. I want some reassurance from someone with experience that an EFIE will work on a 4 wire O2 sensor. 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6cyl is my vehicle. Also, would extending (plug non fouler)the second O2 sensor, located downstream of the Catalytic converter help?

I'm still building my generator so I don't have any direct knowledge of o2 sensor, but everything I have read the wideband o2 sensors do have 5 wire.

You may want to check my post about o2 wiring: http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=410

If the colors match then the wiring should be the same.

[daveczrn]

Unless your vehicle came with a supercharger or a turbo charger you did not get a wide band O2 sensor. They definatly cost more to produce.

[Dewayne]

My Smacksbooster's housing is almost completed.

I'm at a point I'm wonder how I can fill it without removing the top or any of the fittings.

Any of you HHO geeks have any ideas.

[gheuett]

I included a small fitting with a brass plug with that idea in mind. I haven't used it yet. Since I have been pulling mine out so much lately for testing and adjusting, I've just been unscrewing the large cap. That is one problem with this design - you dont have a lot of room on top for terminals, filler caps, and your output hose.

My results are in from two fillups and basically it is having no impact as my mileage is right on the 21 I normally get in my Saturn Vue. There was no change on the first tank so I thought I would go for a shorter distance just in case the computer was adjusting for the O2. I just tried a total reset of the computer by removing the battery cables and I ran it for approx 80 miles. I'm not sure the HHO is having any effect. My output is presently around .5 LPM which seems a bit weak for a Smacks. I'm not sure that is enough for my 3.0 Liter engine. From anyone's experience with this design, should I expect to see more? My current draw was around 11 amps with 2 tsp of KOH in about 1.8 quarts of distilled water. I added one more tsp tonight and reset the computer again - filled the tank.

We'll see if there is a change.
Thanks,
Gib

[countryboy18]

can you just put a "T" close to the outlet and then pour water in from the open side of the "T". just put a valve or plug up the open hole when it is running and open it to add water.

[Dewayne]

I included a small fitting with a brass plug with that idea in mind. I haven't used it yet. Since I have been pulling mine out so much lately for testing and adjusting, I've just been unscrewing the large cap. That is one problem with this design - you dont have a lot of room on top for terminals, filler caps, and your output hose.

My results are in from two fillups and basically it is having no impact as my mileage is right on the 21 I normally get in my Saturn Vue. There was no change on the first tank so I thought I would go for a shorter distance just in case the computer was adjusting for the O2. I just tried a total reset of the computer by removing the battery cables and I ran it for approx 80 miles. I'm not sure the HHO is having any effect. My output is presently around .5 LPM which seems a bit weak for a Smacks. I'm not sure that is enough for my 3.0 Liter engine. From anyone's experience with this design, should I expect to see more? My current draw was around 11 amps with 2 tsp of KOH in about 1.8 quarts of distilled water. I added one more tsp tonight and reset the computer again - filled the tank.

We'll see if there is a change.
Thanks,
Gib

Are you doing anything to control your o2 sensors? From what I have read you need to have an EFIE or you cars computer will correct the amount of fuel going to the engine and you won't see any change.

[Bwanar]

From what I've read, 6.5LPHr for each liter of engine is all you need for ideal fuel burn. That would mean that your generator needs to make .325LPM, so your making more than enough. That sounds about right for output given that amperage. Making more than you can use just creates heat problems.


I included a small fitting with a brass plug with that idea in mind. I haven't used it yet. Since I have been pulling mine out so much lately for testing and adjusting, I've just been unscrewing the large cap. That is one problem with this design - you dont have a lot of room on top for terminals, filler caps, and your output hose.

My results are in from two fillups and basically it is having no impact as my mileage is right on the 21 I normally get in my Saturn Vue. There was no change on the first tank so I thought I would go for a shorter distance just in case the computer was adjusting for the O2. I just tried a total reset of the computer by removing the battery cables and I ran it for approx 80 miles. I'm not sure the HHO is having any effect. My output is presently around .5 LPM which seems a bit weak for a Smacks. I'm not sure that is enough for my 3.0 Liter engine. From anyone's experience with this design, should I expect to see more? My current draw was around 11 amps with 2 tsp of KOH in about 1.8 quarts of distilled water. I added one more tsp tonight and reset the computer again - filled the tank.

We'll see if there is a change.
Thanks,
Gib

[Ronjinsan]

Hey Gib....a quart is just about a litre and I use a litre container for my unit! Now if I was to put 2 tsps in mine......I would be scraping the melted glass off my engine compartment in less than 10 minutes! Something aint right! Whats the distance between your plates?

Ron

[porkchop]

Are you doing anything to control your o2 sensors? From what I have read you need to have an EFIE or you cars computer will correct the amount of fuel going to the engine and you won't see any change.

I see the need for an efie thread. I'll start one.
I use brass fittings. They have become discolored. That is all so far. I have had one unit in my Jeep for a month. FYI for those wondering.
Threads are ok, only inside gets discolored.

[gheuett]

Thanks for the replies!

That is good to know that there is a target LPM figure out there. I have definitely reached that. So far I've not tried anything on the O2 sensor. I guess one question I have is how quickly does car's computer adjust? Are there ones that respond very quickly?? That could be part of my problem

Ron to your question about the spacing, I'm using 1.6mm spacers between the plate pairs. I followed the Smack's Booster specs to the letter. Now there may be one area that is a problem and that is the plates do vary in terms on bend and just overall alignment. They are generally straight but in my first set up I know some were touching and that prevented any activity until I was able to make sure they were all separated. I might do well to re-assemble and make sure they are more precisely aligned. While I am at it, I might also do what others have suggested and put these in the vise to flatten them out just to make for a little better precision.

Thanks!
Gib

[porkchop]

If no results or your results start to diminish, I would try an Efie( for cars with computers). (this is just my opinion, which of course, could be wrong) I am going to try one, now I am figuring out which one. Making one looks like you have to deal with making a box, mounting, bla, bla. I just want to buy one that attaches to the wires. It is my understanding, that the O2 sensor "sees" high oxygen ( from hydro unit), and compensates by adding fuel, thinking the mixture is too lean from the high O2 reading. Anyone is welcome to correct this if I have interpreted what happens wrong. I posted in general discussions on a Efie type thread about using that thread for Efie's. I hope to get some replies on the do's & don'ts, good and bad about them.

[Dewayne]

I posted this information in another thread in this forum. Hope it helps.

Smacks calls for using a center punch to dent the plates. I tried doing the random pattern and that got very time consuming. I took one plate and drew a 3/16" grid on it to use as a pattern. I then stacked two plates together and clamped both of them to the flat side of the vice. These were secured to the vice with two C-clamps. One over each screw hole. I then put a dent at the cross points in the pattern. By stacking two plates the pattern is transfered to the bottom plate. After the top plate is completed use the bottom plate as a pattern for the next plate by stacking one under it. If you are like me the pattern will drift a little as you do more plates. Just eyeball the drift and correct it as you go. I did all my plates (16) in less than 5 hours. Also don't put any dents within a 1/4" of the bend this will help in not deforming the plate.

[Dewayne]

I have found an easy way to fill the Smacks type cell.

I went to the hardware store today and was looking for anything I could use to fill the cell with without removing any of the wires or fitting.

What I came up with seems like the ideal fix.

I purchased a 1/2" ball valve and a 1/2" spigot slip adpator. On the cap in an area where there are no other fittings or wire connections I measured half way between the cap threads (inside part not outside) and the cap square raised part (9/16".) I then took a 7/8" forsner (sp) bit and drilled through the cap. You will then need to cut off about 1/4 of the flange on the spigot adpator. Now insert the spigot adpator up throught the bottom of the cap for a test fit. It should be a very snug fit. Slip the ball valve over the adpator and check how it fits. It will NOT fit all the way down on the adpator, you only want to be sure you can get it most of the way over the adpator. Now remove everything from the cap. You will now epoxy everything together. Use only "J-B Weld" epoxy, this is the toughest epoxy I have ever found. I think I got mine from Wal-Mart. Be sure to put a good amount of it inside the ball valve as there is a gap that will need to be filled.

[Dewayne]

I received my plates back from being sandblasted today.
I started to put the plates together.
I don't know if the .2lpm gain is worth the trouble of denting the plates.
I have found the denting has distorted the plates.
It's going to take some time to get them to a point where they don't touch when assembled.

Oh well it's done and I'll have to live and work with it.

[Farmercal]

From what I've read, 6.5LPHr for each liter of engine is all you need for ideal fuel burn. That would mean that your generator needs to make .325LPM, so your making more than enough. That sounds about right for output given that amperage. Making more than you can use just creates heat problems. If this is in fact true, then why are people trying to achieve 1.5 or higher LPM gain in HHO? According to what you posted a 5.6L/350CID engine only needs .604 LPM output from the HHO producer. That's only a little over half a liter per minute and people are producing 1.5 regularly for 5 Liter engines. Either your figures are incorrect or people are producing too much HHO for the engine.

[daveczrn]

No one has really any data currently as to what is the optimum amount of HHO for us. Atleast no one is talking about it. There maybe a paper writen somewhere by a scientist but we haven't found the paper yet.

so we go with the old tried and true method of more is better.

[justaguy]

I think to get measurable results in mpg you need at least 1 lpm. Horsepower might be noticed on less but the mpg increase is small .

[Dewayne]

CRAP,

I got my Smacks cell and plates completed today.
I went to install the plates into the cell and they were about 3/8" to wide
to go into the cell.

The only deviation between my generator and the Smacks design is my SS nuts are 6.67mm where the design calls for 6mm nuts.

The original plate configuration is + nnnnnnn - nnnnnnn +. In order to get them inside the cell I changed the plate arrangement to - nnnnn + nnnnn -.
With a little work I could get 6x6 "n" plates if they are needed.

Does anyone see a problem with this change?





I edited this as I had the +/- reversed in the plate connections.

Also Smacks is using 2 plates for the - voltage, could I cut that back to 1 plate?

[EltonBrandd]

CRAP,

I got my Smacks cell and plates completed today.
I went to install the plates into the cell and they were about 3/8" to wide
to go into the cell.

The only deviation between my generator and the Smacks design is my SS nuts are 6.67mm where the design calls for 6mm nuts.

The original plate configuration is - nnnnnnn + nnnnnnn -. In order to get them inside the cell I changed the plate arrangement to - nnnnn + nnnnn -.
With a little work I could get 6x6 "n" plates if they are needed.

Does anyone see a problem with this change?

The cell calls for +nnnnnn-nnnnnnn+ the later version has added a "n" to the last set of plates. This gives it 18 total. Try removing the 2 outer plates and see if it fits. That should give you a little room, but the difference between the 6.67mm and 6mm is definitely a problem for dimensions.

[RMForbes]

To optimize the cell for gas production you need to take into account the voltage input to the cell. You should have enough total plates to reduce the voltage drop between each plate to between 2.0v and 2.5v with 2.2v being optimum. So, if you are not using a Meyer's type PWM with a voltage inverter to kick up the voltage and your altenator has a output of about 14v your cell should have 6 to 7 gaps between the plates. For example +nn-nn+ or +nnnnnn-

[mawarf]

[QUOTE=Dewayne;4724]CRAP,

I got my Smacks cell and plates completed today.
I went to install the plates into the cell and they were about 3/8" to wide
to go into the cell.

The only deviation between my generator and the Smacks design is my SS nuts are 6.67mm where the design calls for 6mm nuts.







I had the same problem with mine, so I used washers instead. worked just fine. also use an ohm meter to test if plates were touching.

[Dewayne]

No shorted plates, already checked but tks.

[humbug]

where can i find the nylon threaded rod? ive been looking every where for it

[daveczrn]

both grainger and mcmaster carr have them... i have yet to find a local supplier that carries it.

[Dewayne]

where can i find the nylon threaded rod? ive been looking every where for it

Fastenal carries nylon rod also. I got 6' of 5/16x18 for $28. I know 6' is a bit of over kill, but hey maybe I'll build a generator and power my house. LOL

[justaguy]

I seen it on ebay, 12inch rod with nuts for 4.39

[EltonBrandd]

where can i find the nylon threaded rod? ive been looking every where for it

A good industrial hardware store will carry it. Look in the yellow pages in your area. Its the kind of place that keeps strict bankers hours and the employees are crusty and rude.