Neutral Plates

[havocs29]

I have recently started building cells without neutral plates. I have been reading lots of threads and most people I see recommend using them. First question what is beneficial to neutral plates? Do they really drop amps? And I would love to hear from you guys what setup as worked best for you. Example +-NN-+

[justaguy]

Yes neutral plates will drop the amps but again you need amps to make more hho. If you have a design that is pulling too many amps then the neutrals will help in lowering the amps. +-+- will produce more hho but the amps and heat will usually be higher.

[dennis13030]

By design, everyone can set the operating point of their electrolyzer.

The Operating Point:
What defines the operating point of an electrolyzer are the following items;
1. How many Volts and Amps does it use.
2. What is the stable temperature.
3. What is the stable HHO gas production rate.

Reminders
1. More current(Amps) leads to more gas production and higher heat.
2. Externally applied higher heat leads to more current(Amps) and more gas production.
3. Efficiency and gas production are INVERSELY related. An electrolyzer is most efficient at low gas production rates. An electrolyzer is least efficient at higher gas production rates.

There are many ways to set the operating point. The basic two ways are;
1. Add or remove neutral plates.
2. Change the eletrolyte mix(add/remove chemical and/or use different chemicals and/or use different type of water).

[BoyntonStu]

I have recently started building cells without neutral plates. I have been reading lots of threads and most people I see recommend using them. First question what is beneficial to neutral plates? Do they really drop amps? And I would love to hear from you guys what setup as worked best for you. Example +-NN-+

In an electrolyte ALL plates are electrically active and are electrically connected to each other.

IOW In an electrolyte there are NO Neutral plates. None! Nada! Zero!


These plates are unconnected via metal to the battery, they are connected via the electrolyte to the battery.

Again, there are no Neutral plates.

BoyntonStu

[mario brito]

In an electrolyte ALL plates are electrically active and are electrically connected to each other.

IOW In an electrolyte there are NO Neutral plates. None! Nada! Zero!


These plates are unconnected via metal to the battery, they are connected via the electrolyte to the battery.

Again, there are no Neutral plates.

BoyntonStu

Again ?????????????????????

We know that... but we like to call them neutral... hello....

[BoyntonStu]

Read his question again.

He does not understand unconnected plates.

If he did, he would not have asked the question;

"First question what is beneficial to neutral plates? Do they really drop amps? "

Calling unconnected plates, "Neutral" continues the misconception.

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[Q-Hack!]

How about this:

Neutral plates are those which are not hard wired to the voltage source.

Does that fit the criteria?

[BoyntonStu]

How about this:

Neutral plates are those which are not hard wired to the voltage source.

Does that fit the criteria?

What you say is accurate but not sufficient.

Is this acceptable?


"Neutral plates are those which are not hard wired to the voltage source but are connected to other plates in the cell through the electrolyte."

BoyntonStu

[Q-Hack!]

I can buy into that. :)

[Haywire Haywood]

It seems to me that depending on the electrolyte to connect the plates would be inefficient and would encourage current leakage. If the effect of neutral plates is a series cell with voltage drop at each plate, why not wire it that way? If you have stainless strapping connecting the plates in series, you are directing the current where you want it and discouraging it going where you don't want it.

Take that for what it's worth. I'm a newb that hasn't experimented with neutral plates but I do have an electrical background. I'm an aircraft electrician by trade.

Ian

[Q-Hack!]

If you reduced your source voltage to 1.69 volts (asuming NaOH as your electrolyte) then running your cell with your source voltage to each plate makes since. If you are using a 12v system, like in most vehicles, then you need to drop the voltage of each plate down in some way. Using unconnected plates does this for us very cheaply and works quite well.

[JojoJaro]

So, why don't we just say 'Unconnected'.

So, the ideal cell configurations should be:

+UUUUU-

5 unconnected plates (formerly known as Neutral plates)

[Q-Hack!]

If you really want to get into semantics...

Its not HHO that we are producing, its 2H2+O2

But HHO is easier to say; hence I don't really have a problem calling them Neutral plates.

;)

[Haywire Haywood]

Would you guys call a Smack's or the Plumabob cell a neutral config? Reason I ask is that their plates aren't really unconnected. Each pair is hard connected to the next pair.

Ian

[havocs29]

I'm really not to worried about amp draw. I have a diesel that has two aftermarket 280 amp alternators. So even if I had a generator that took 60 amps wouldn't be a big deal. But of course the more amps the higher the heat. I am just experimenting with ways to keeping heat down for the most part. I'm assuming some kind of cooling system would be the way to go.

[timetowinarace]

Would you guys call a Smack's or the Plumabob cell a neutral config? Reason I ask is that their plates aren't really unconnected. Each pair is hard connected to the next pair.

Ian

Yes, using our definition of neutral, The Smack's and Plumabob cells use neutrals. The plate pairs are unconnected. The Smacks is the first to utilize neutrals for the common folks, as far as I can find. I have found no other booster design pre-dating the Smacks that uses them. Of course, they were not called neutrals but were correctly identified as series plates. Early booster 'manufacturers' (ebay sellers) began adding the revolutionary "nuetral" plates when the units they sold began overheating. There the term "neutral" became the incorrect explanation of the additional plate. It spilled over to the do-it-yourself group from those copying their design. This is my observation from much research of the information available.

The Plumabob is just a modified Smacks design. It should be credited as such. There are advantages to both designs. Plumabobs version further decreases current loss that is common with neutrals. The Smacks can use more plates in a smaller encloser wich it was designed to do.

As for neutrals by our definition, I will not use them. They severely restrict output potential. Seperate cells in series is the best way to drop voltage and maximize output.

[VanHalen]

What you say is accurate but not sufficient.

Is this acceptable?


"Neutral plates are those which are not hard wired to the voltage source but are connected to other plates in the cell through the electrolyte."

BoyntonStu

So if you wound a wire around the W4G model, but not connected to the voltage source, would it not be nuetral?

[Haywire Haywood]

Yes, using our definition of neutral, The Smack's and Plumabob cells use neutrals. The plate pairs are unconnected.

It looks like to me that the pairs are connected. The only difference between what is being called a neutral config and what you and I have been calling series is some kind of dielectric divider between the individual cells to inhibit current leakage, be it the lexan sheet I plan to use or actually physically having the next pair in a different container like a canning jar. Other than that, how the pairs are wired is essentially the same. + electrolyte - strap to next pair + electrolyte - etc etc. If each pair were individually powered with source voltage, they'd be in parallel with no voltage drop at all, like that cell I put together.

Can ya dig it? :)

Ian

[brotherdoc]

Why not call them 'Resistor Plates'? Effectively that's what they are, voltage drops.