Smallest cell to produce 1LPM?

[BoyntonStu]

Smallest cell to produce 1LPM?

Ignore heat for the moment.

What is the smallest cell/area that you have seen that produced 1LPM?

IOW What cell size is the theoretical minimum required to produce 1LPM?

BoyntonStu

[Q-Hack!]

That's a good question... I think I remember somebody with a bunch of fender washers that was producing close to 1 LPM. I'll see if I can't find it again.

[Haywire Haywood]

That's a good question... I think I remember somebody with a bunch of fender washers that was producing close to 1 LPM. I'll see if I can't find it again.

this one? http://hydrogengenerator.cc/blog/?cat=3

Ian

[Roland Jacques]

3"x4"x5"
1 LPM
http://www.hydroreactors.com/index_files/Page577.htm

If it takes 40 amps do 1 LPM that is not all that good. If it can give me 1LPM at 15 amps that would be a big Wow factor.

[Jaxom]

Theoretically? The needed surface area can be determined by current density and current. We know that for most brute force designs it takes about 12A of current to produce 1lpm, and that .5A/sq.in. is an accepted limit for current density, so the math is easy:

required current/current density=SA of smallest powered electrode
12/.5=24 sq.in.

So I would think that a single cell [+-] would need to be 4"x6".
A double cell [+-+] would have to be at least 3"x4".
A triple cell [+-+-] could be as small as 4"x2"
The more plates you use the smaller they can be.

You'd need a pretty strong electrolyte to get the conductivity up so that the cell will pass enough current. Also running 12 amps through a cell that small may cause heat issues if it doesn't have much electrolyte capacity.

[overtaker]

BOYNTONSTU Do you think your pot cell is in the running? :D

[Haywire Haywood]

I guess you could think of the plates like a wire. If you pull 12a through a 16 gauge wire, it's gonna get get hot. If you pull it through a 6 gauge wire, you won't notice it at all. I've been sitting here muddling that idea about the cell I end up building next.

Thanks

[BoyntonStu]

Theoretically? The needed surface area can be determined by current density and current. We know that for most brute force designs it takes about 12A of current to produce 1lpm, and that .5A/sq.in. is an accepted limit for current density, so the math is easy:

required current/current density=SA of smallest powered electrode
12/.5=24 sq.in.

So I would think that a single cell [+-] would need to be 4"x6".
A double cell [+-+] would have to be at least 3"x4".
A triple cell [+-+-] could be as small as 4"x2"
The more plates you use the smaller they can be.

You'd need a pretty strong electrolyte to get the conductivity up so that the cell will pass enough current. Also running 12 amps through a cell that small may cause heat issues if it doesn't have much electrolyte capacity.

Jazom,

Thanks, good thinking.

I agree with your calculations if the assumptions are correct.

Remember, 'ignore heat'.

The theoretical question is twofold:

a: Are 12 Amps at 13.8 V sufficient for 1 LPM?

b: Is the current limit 0.5 A/sq in?

Are these practical or theoretical limits?

Another way to look at the question is the Faraday/MMW 'limit'.

Bob Boyce is claiming over 12 MMW.

Let's cut that in half to 6.

Go to http://www.watervan.co.uk/tools.php

Your system is generating 6.04 MMW HHO
This number has been rounded down to 2 decimal places, the actual number, according to the data you entered is 6.038647343

This calculator will work out the MMW for you - just enter the following details:

Volts: 13.8
Amps: 12

Mililitres (ml) Produced: 1,000

Amount of Seconds: 60

So, yes it may be possible to produce 1LPM at 12 A if your cell was able to yield 6 MMW.

Zero and others have a really hard time breaking 5 MMW.


Back to area and A/sq in

Let's pump 1 A/sq-in.

Would a 2x3 cell at 24 A also produce 1LPM?

2 Volts at 24 A is only 48 watts.

Going back to the MMW calculator we get 20 MMW, a highly dubious number.

It gets interesting:

What if we pumped 24 A at 13.8 V (331 Watts) into a single cell?

MMW calculates to a very inefficient 3.

If minimum size is the goal, and ignoring heat was the stipulation, a tiny 2x3 cell is possible.

Does this mean that heat aside, one can pump enough Amps/Watts into any size cell and still produce 1LPM?


BoyntonStu

[justaguy]

As haywire pointed out, Randy on another forum is getting like 1 liter in 27 seconds with eleven 2.5" washers. He has 6 of these in series now putting out around 14LMP. With the first 3 he connected in series he went from 24 to 52 mpg on his toyota pickup. BTW, he uses lemon koolaide for his electrolyte.

[BoyntonStu]

As haywire pointed out, Randy on another forum is getting like 1 liter in 27 seconds with eleven 2.5" washers. He has 6 of these in series now putting out around 14LMP. With the first 3 he connected in series he went from 24 to 52 mpg on his toyota pickup. BTW, he uses lemon koolaide for his electrolyte.

URL reference please.


BoyntonStu

[justaguy]

http://hydrogengenerator.cc/index.php?sid=9b0a0c61fd4b85de503dea970e8f320a

Search for Randy or Randy cell

Also Hydrotech has a great tube cell putting out about 2.5 LPM with four tubes 3" 2.5" 2" 1" only 2" tall.

[BoyntonStu]

http://hydrogengenerator.cc/index.php?sid=9b0a0c61fd4b85de503dea970e8f320a

Search for Randy or Randy cell

Also Hydrotech has a great tube cell putting out about 2.5 LPM with four tubes 3" 2.5" 2" 1" only 2" tall.

Thanks for the link.

My goal is to design a skinny cell that will shoehorn into most engine compartments.

I believe that I know how to do it in a 1-1/2" ID - 1-3/4" OD pipe.

Small enough?


BoyntonStu

[justaguy]

[QUOTE=BoyntonStu;11154]Thanks for the link.

My goal is to design a skinny cell that will shoehorn into most engine compartments.

I believe that I know how to do it in a 1-1/2" ID - 1-3/4" OD pipe.

Small enough?


BoyntonStu[/QUOTE

Yes, I think that would work if it was long enough to hold enough water to keep it cool. You could use a second pipe and let the water circulate across the two. Or like some people are doing, circulate the water from the bubbler through the generator and back to the bubbler.

[BoyntonStu]

The Randy Cell is a single cell with 11 plates.

* - + - + - + - + - + where evey - and every + is connected to the baterry.

This cell seems to prove the point that you can pump extra Volts and Amps
to get more gas.

2" Dia x 11 washers = 34.54 sq in

Do we agree here?

IOW a single 6" x 6" cell should be equal but much bulkier.

Perhaps a better way to make it would be like this:

+ N N N N - N N N N +

BoyntonStu

[justaguy]

[QUOTE=BoyntonStu;11154]Thanks for the link.

My goal is to design a skinny cell that will shoehorn into most engine compartments.

I believe that I know how to do it in a 1-1/2" ID - 1-3/4" OD pipe.

Small enough?


BoyntonStu[/QUOTE

Yes, I think that would work if it was long enough to hold enough water to keep it cool. You could use a second pipe and let the water circulate across the two. Or like some people are doing, circulate the water from the bubbler through the generator and back to the bubbler But then you need room for this too.

[BoyntonStu]

[QUOTE=BoyntonStu;11154]Thanks for the link.

My goal is to design a skinny cell that will shoehorn into most engine compartments.

I believe that I know how to do it in a 1-1/2" ID - 1-3/4" OD pipe.

Small enough?


BoyntonStu[/QUOTE

Yes, I think that would work if it was long enough to hold enough water to keep it cool. You could use a second pipe and let the water circulate across the two. Or like some people are doing, circulate the water from the bubbler through the generator and back to the bubbler But then you need room for this too.


I agree, however the cooler could be horizontal and placed underneath the mess.

I can 'see' a horizontal tube with fins in the air stream just behind the grill and beneath the radiator.


Boyntonstu

[justaguy]

Yeah, I think that would work. You would need some powerful cells in one that small though, maybe platinum?

[midnight1957]

Guys the Hydroblock and Hydroreactors was mentioned earlier in this post. STAY AWAY, if you look on their website all they have done was made promises to the people that have ordered them. They will not make a simple video and their word is all that you know about the output from their cell.
People are getting pretty disgusted now and Ray will not return anyones phone call or email.
BTW he has a lawyer answering some of the questions, what does that tell you, he has retained a lawyer, now why do you think that is?

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[justaguy]

The Randy Cell is a single cell with 11 plates.

* - + - + - + - + - + where evey - and every + is connected to the baterry.

This cell seems to prove the point that you can pump extra Volts and Amps
to get more gas.

2" Dia x 11 washers = 34.54 sq in

Do we agree here?

IOW a single 6" x 6" cell should be equal but much bulkier.

Perhaps a better way to make it would be like this:

+ N N N N - N N N N +

BoyntonStu


Yeah , Randy has already learned that the more amps he runs the more hho he gets. He added a larger alternator and now is running about 80 amps through six washer cells in series.

No, with the +NNNN-NNNN+ his production would go way down. Randy has played around with hho for several years and he tried every configuration. Feel free to go to this forum and ask him questions, he will tell you. http://hydrogengenerator.cc/search.php?mode=results

[jcbarton]

do you have the link to this other forum?? I am curious and want to check out the fender washer design. I just built one.

[justaguy]

The link is in the above post.

[Bullgator]

As haywire pointed out, Randy on another forum is getting like 1 liter in 27 seconds with eleven 2.5" washers. He has 6 of these in series now putting out around 14LMP. With the first 3 he connected in series he went from 24 to 52 mpg on his toyota pickup. BTW, he uses lemon koolaide for his electrolyte.


What year Toyota? And how can I get in touch with this guy?

Thanks.

[IFixjets]

http://www.hydrogengenerator.cc/viewtopic.php?t=2419
http://www.hydrogengenerator.cc/blog/

[Haywire Haywood]

Thanks for the link.

My goal is to design a skinny cell that will shoehorn into most engine compartments.

I believe that I know how to do it in a 1-1/2" ID - 1-3/4" OD pipe.

Why don't you combine that idea with that dry cell we saw on ebay. Make it a dry cell config with the bubbler being the reservoir. Just have to figure out a top that would seal yet be accessible for maintenance. Your entire generator could be 4" tall.

Ian

[BoyntonStu]

Why don;t you combine that idea with that dry cell we saw on ebay. Make it a dry cell config with the bubbler being the reservoir. Just have to figure out a top that would seal yet be accessible for maintenance. Your entire generator could be 4" tall.

Ian

Yes, I agree with you.

After seeing the video. I shifted gears and I will now go dry cell .

"Just have to figure out a top that would seal "

Seal what for maintenance?

If you mean the cell, it comes apart by unscrewing the bolts.

Can the gaskets be used again?

IMHO The gasket material is quite important.

Ir must seal of course but in addition it must not creep and require tightening, it must stand up to the electrolyte, and it must take the heat.

I have been informed that PVC gaskets creep whereas silicone gaskets remain stable.

Where do you purchase silicone sheets?

BoyntonStu