JACKPOT! - Plumabob/Smith Model Works!

[HHOhoper]

Fantastic News!

My father and I have been lab partners from the beginning and we now have a generator that works. It's using the 1300 pelican box and the plate design that Mr. Smith demonstrates. It produces at about 1 LPM at a little under 13 amps and reaches a max temperature of 135 degrees. When this thing is on, you can't stand too close because you start to choke due to the high volumes of hydrogen that come out!
So my pop put this thing in his 1994 Chevy Suburban that has about (I'm not kidding) 350,000 miles on it (and it still runs fantastic). His gas mileage before the generator was about 12-13 MPG on average. Well after having completed this gem, he was a little disappointed when his MPG only went up to 15. And for some strange reason, he was smelling gasoline all the time. Well after doing some poking around after driving it for about two weeks he discovered that the gasoline smell was coming from a loose pipe nut on the fuel filter that was leaking gas all over the place!! So with spewing gasoline all over the roads of Utah, that generator was still putting him with an increase! :p So now that we've shut off our gas sprayer, I'm really excited to see what that old beast does! He affectionately refers to the Suburban as "Abraham."

I'm going to post some pictures of the generator to share. My pa and I wish to thank Mr Smith and Plumabob for their hard work and research - it has really paid off and is working like a charm. They get all the credit for this one. I'm now going to build an exact replica to try in my Grand Prix and we'll see how that does.

WOO HOO!!!! IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!

[scrode]

hey HHOhoper what part of Utah you from?

So with spewing gasoline all over the roads of Utah,



I live in Spanish Fork.


Scott

[HHOhoper]

Riverton (South Salt Lake Valley)

[scrode]

cool, I grew up in Granger( West Valley). and I drive to midvale every week to play my guitar with friends. Wife made me move to Spanish Fork because of work, but now drives back to SLC every day so thats what got me interested in HHO. so now I'm stuck in happy valley:eek:.

[HHOhoper]

Very nice! I was wondering when I was going to run into a local! :D

[plumabob]

Very Cool HHOhopper,

I'm glad my plate design is working for you and Smitty's Pelican case is a winner as well. It does pump out lots of HHO at low amperage and will never overheat as you have seen. For under 50 bucks you can build a Generator using an 1150 Pelican case thats basically bulletproof. Mine is working perfectly. Would like to see some new results when you get that gas leak fixed!

Congrats,

Bob

[Smith03Jetta]

Thanks for the "Thanks". I'm glad it is working for you. I've made no adjustments to my two cases in a long time. They are holding up just fine with absolutely no problems. I should have used one of those cases earlier when I first thought of it. I just wasn't sure enough about HHO in general when I first got started to spend the extra money on the Case. It's a whole lot easier to spend 10 or 15 bucks at a time than to drop $50.00 at once on a plastic box. You get what you pay for...

I removed the checkvalve from near the handle on both of my boxes. I'm wondering if your checkvalve is leaking any? If it isn't then that's great. If it is leaking you can run a SS bolt through the hole with a gasket on each side.

[redneckgearhead34]

I was wondering where you aquired you ss from. Also what gauge/thickness you used. Or does "smith" offer a manual on a website or something

[volomike]

His gas mileage before the generator was about 12-13 MPG on average. Well after having completed this gem, he was a little disappointed when his MPG only went up to 15.

Okay, some time has passed and you found the fuel problem. What's the MPG now?

[Smith03Jetta]

"Smith" does not have a website or a manual. Please search this forum for my "Touareg" thread or my Jetta thread. If you look at the Jetta Thread start reading at post #190. The Touareg thread shows my latest design. It makes 1.5 liters of HHO at around 23 amps. Low Temperature Cell. I built it in one evening.

316L Stainless Steel - 18 gauge - Available at Sheet Metal Shops.

[redneckgearhead34]

Ok I will definitly look at it and thanks for the information.

[HHOhoper]

Good question. I'll be reporting back soon.

[HHOhoper]

I'm at work and I get a voicemail from some giggling man who turned out to be my father.:rolleyes: He just stopped at the gas station and reported an MPG of 17.25. He also said that there was some weird voltage drop-off and the amps went from 15 down to 2.5 while still producing the same amount of gas!!! :confused: I'll be calling him tonight to get all the details. Since my last post, he said he's changed up the variables a little bit. He said that he has 3.5 TABLESPOONS of KOH in his mix.

Anyway, I was excited to here the news and I'm more excited to go see all of this!

[HomeGrown]

LOL! A '94 Suburban definately does NOT need any "help" in drinking gas.

Now the question is: was Abraham spraying gas before the addition of the HHO cell? If so, he will have to recheck baseline MPG without the HHO cell, so the repair of the gas line doesn't inappropriatly credit the HHO cell with MPG improvement.

Just trying to keep it real. ;)

[HHOhoper]

I'm pretty sure the gas leak hasn't been going on for that long.

[gizzy]

I need to know what to do to stop a leak. I love the youyr unit..:) What do you used to stop the studs from leaking and dripping? I atempted 3 times now an I'm bumming. Can anyone help. I'm using a flooded generator.

[plumabob]

On my pelican case all you have to do is silicone the bolts going through the side and let it set for 24 hours. I do not use any gaskets. Mine has not leaked 1 drip in 1000 miles.

Bob

[BoyntonStu]

On my pelican case all you have to do is silicone the bolts going through the side and let it set for 24 hours. I do not use any gaskets. Mine has not leaked 1 drip in 1000 miles.

Bob

Bob,

Specifically, what brand of silicone?

Have you ever had the stuff submersed in the electrolyte?

BoyntonStu

[plumabob]

I used what I had around. I think it was GE clear. But I guess you could use marine silicone for something more durable. My bolts are always submerged, I haven't had any issues. My stainless steel bolts go through the end plates and I just silicone the bolts themselves and tighten. I have an oversized washer on the outside. Then wipe off the excess. Thats it!


Bob

[BoyntonStu]

I used what I had around. I think it was GE clear. But I guess you could use marine silicone for something more durable. My bolts are always submerged, I haven't had any issues. My stainless steel bolts go through the end plates and I just silicone the bolts themselves and tighten. I have an oversized washer on the outside. Then wipe off the excess. Thats it!


Bob

Bob,

There is so much information and misinformation regarding adhesives that it is hard sometimes to get direction.

For example, most folks have had problems with tool dip, yet on another forum a guy reported success using the stuff with proper preparation.

He too, had initially reported failure.

I have spoken to several adhesive manufacturers and what they basically say is that organic based adhesives will not withstand KOH.

However, they went on to say that certain fillers will withstand KOH.

Goop claims that up to a 3.4% KOH solution will be tolerated.

I spoke directly with their chief chemist in Oregon.

They are kindly sending me a sample to try.

Adhesives are not a simple 'set it and forget it' solution.

There is time, temperature, and tolerance to the electrolyte.

In a car there is also temperature swings an vibration to consider.

I am pleased to hear that you have used silicone with success.

Did you prepare the surfaces or clean them is a special way?

BoyntonStu

[Stevo]

BoyntonStu,

Be sure to let us know how this works if you do end up trying it. I know that Zero recommends Goop Marine adhesive and our typical 1tsp/gal ratio is approximately an 800th of a gallon or .0013020833, so even at 3 or 4 times the KOH it sounds like Goop would hold up pretty well so long as 3.4% is the magic number.

[HHOhoper]

Well we think we've reached the max for the Suburban. It's now running at 19 MPG with 12 cups of distilled water and 1.5 t of KOH. I am completely shocked at how little hydrogen is being produced to get such a large result. It's drawing four amps and hardly gets hot if at all. We tried going to 2 t of KOH and the MPG dropped way down so we're pretty sure this is the ideal for this vehicle.
I made an exact duplicate of the one in the Suburban and put it in my Grand Prix two days ago. I'm not sure I am producing enough hydrogen yet, but we'll see. So far I've gone from an average of 22.5 MPG to about 26-28 MPG. After the plates and electrolyte break in, I'm going to attempt adding a little more KOH to see if I can push it higher.

Earlier it was asked what we used to seal the electrodes. All we used on either side was a rubber washer, a nylon washer and then a SS washer on both sides. The suburban has been going for weeks and it hasn't leaked at all. To seal the pressure release hole, we packed it with Quik Steel and that has worked great as well.

Now that the Grand Prix is done, I just got done ordering the parts for our Jeep and will make the exact same model generator for that as well. My Dad put the exact same generators in their '98 Tahoe and the '94 E-350 Motorhome. I'm really anxious to hear how the motorhome does.

[Smith03Jetta]

SO....

You reduced the HHO output to a certain level and got better MPG results?

[HHOhoper]

SO....

You reduced the HHO output to a certain level and got better MPG results?

Exactly!!! We had that baby cranking out about 1LPM and it wouldn't go past 16-17 MPG. He put in 5T of KOH to get that performance and the water boiled like crazy. On a hunch, he decided to put the level way lower (see below) and it jumped up to 19 and has stayed there consistently after several tests.

During our very initial experiements with these we tried using some VERY primitive designs that didn't produce much of anything. Well he got 18 MPG with it. We assumed that it was just a calculation error because there's no way a 350 V8 would jump up gas mileage that high with so little HHO. Well, turns out we were right! It's been said that every engine is different and it is VERY TRUE. The lesson learned from this is to start with a low output of HHO and then keep bumping it up, testing your MPG at every change. Your MPG should go up and up and then all the sudden should crash because your sensors are picking it up. Take one step back and then you know that you've reached the max your engine will take without having to mod anything. I'm sure that's not the end all for EVERYONE, but that's what has worked for us so far.

[Riddler250]

How did it work on the tahoe? Im ready to start building but would like to know what will show results for sure before investing any money right now. And conrats on the increase even a little bit matters

[HHOhoper]

I'm still waiting to hear on the Tahoe. He only put it in a fews days ago and I know he wants to get a lot of driving on it so he has an accurate reading. As soon as I know, I'll be sure to put it up though.

[Painless]

Sounds like the higher output was making enough difference to clean up the exhaust and the oxygen sensor was telling the ECU what you were up to perhaps?

[HHOhoper]

Sounds like the higher output was making enough difference to clean up the exhaust and the oxygen sensor was telling the ECU what you were up to perhaps?

I do believe so. :p

[Atm0spher]

i have been using a really strong lye and distilled water mix just playing around. i have a dry cell with the edges and top and bottom sealed with rtv sealent and that stuff is amaizing. it looks just like the day i sealed up the cell. i dont think i will use any thing other that the dow corning rtv sealent. ITS THAT GOOD.

[Painless]

i have been using a really strong lye and distilled water mix just playing around. i have a dry cell with the edges and top and bottom sealed with rtv sealent and that stuff is amaizing. it looks just like the day i sealed up the cell. i dont think i will use any thing other that the dow corning rtv sealent. ITS THAT GOOD.

Sounds good! How much runtime do you have on that cell?

[DigitalMocking]

i have been using a really strong lye and distilled water mix just playing around. i have a dry cell with the edges and top and bottom sealed with rtv sealent and that stuff is amaizing. it looks just like the day i sealed up the cell. i dont think i will use any thing other that the dow corning rtv sealent. ITS THAT GOOD.

Is this what you're using? http://www.4pcorporation.com/Silastic_732.asp

RTV just means room temperature vulcanizing. What actual sealant are you using?

[HHOhoper]

Ok, so I have everything all set up and I'm running into a strange problem. To help make sure that I keep as much KOH out of my engine as possible, I put a vapor trap right after the generator and before the bubbler. Well sometimes, after I check the bubbler, I notice that the water is sucked out into the vapor trap. That would only make sense to me if I were hooking up to my manifold vacuum which I'm not. I'm wondering if the supercharger was creating enough suction to create a vacuum that was doing that.

With the Suburban we noticed that the generator was sucking the water from the bubbler, so when we put the vapor trap in, that seemed to solved it. We just guessed that the dead space in the vapor trap created enough "vacuum play" to compensate for it. For some reason it's just not working with the Grand Prix. I would use a check valve, but we already tried that on the Suburban and the KOH ate it in half.

Any suggestions???
:confused:

[Painless]

I've been using KOH in my setup with a check valve between the reservoir and the bubbler, the check valve is mcmastercarr product number 47245K37 (http://www.mcmaster.com/itm/find.asp?searchstring=47245K37&sesnextrep=463676911028965&tab=find&FastTrack=False&WRCntxt=OrdHist). It's held up fine.

I also took about a letter sized piece of screen door mesh, folded it over and over and jammed it in under my HHO exit barb in my reservoir, this helps to keep any foam from making it's way to the bubbler.

[HHOhoper]

I wasn't able to get that link to work, is it just me? What is that check valve made out of?

[Painless]

Hmm, not just you... seems the site doesn't give good links!

Jump over to www.mcmastercarr.com and put in that product number.

From the page:

" PVDF Body with Viton Diaphragm— For external applications requiring superior chemical and abrasion resistance. Temp. range is -70° to +250° F. Color is translucent white, except 47245K35 (javascript:TargetLink('PC34','a','PC34','47245K35 ');) which is blue."

[HHOhoper]

So last night I was stewing my brain and I came up with this idea. Tell me what you think?



(Someone might have figured this out already, but I've not seen this before)

[gizzy]

So last night I was stewing my brain and I came up with this idea. Tell me what you think?



(Someone might have figured this out already, but I've not seen this before)

I seen zerofossile do something simular to this. On the second container, it was much smaller with a piece of stainless scrunge pad at the top. He was saying that this will keep moisture from entering your vaccum. So one day I found a stainless cylinder and made another bubbler but smaller with the scrunge. Anyhow I seen moisture in my clear hose I used to monitor HHO moisture. Well, I saw moisture trail in the tube and here ther was electrolite in the 2 bubbler all the way almostr to the top and the scrungy was wet. So in my thoughts it didn't work. Possibly if you have a larger bubbler it may. Most of us don't have that kind of space under the hood.

[HHOhoper]

Not only do I not have space under the hood for big bubblers, I don't have space for ANYTHING! I looked and looked and had to resort to putting the whole system in my trunk. It's worked out okay so far. At least this way I have plenty of room for larger containers like you were saying.

[gizzy]

Not only do I not have space under the hood for big bubblers, I don't have space for ANYTHING! I looked and looked and had to resort to putting the whole system in my trunk. It's worked out okay so far. At least this way I have plenty of room for larger containers like you were saying.

Sir, I have idea's. I have a chevy blazer and I'll tell ya it took me some head beating to get mine also closer in the engine compartment. I had it in the cargo hatch. I figure out how to get it under my hood. I bought a k&n intake to do this endeaver... What kind of vehicle do you have?

[HHOhoper]

It's a 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix. I put in a cold air intake hoping that would give me some space, but that engine's exhaust system is so ridiculously designed, that if I were able to squeeze my HHO in there, it would literally be sitting on top of the exhaust pipe.
I'm not too horribly concerned about getting closer to the engine because I know I've already reached the max HHO output that my engine will accept without mods. So getting it closer for production purposes is kind of a moot point.

[gizzy]

It's a 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix. I put in a cold air intake hoping that would give me some space, but that engine's exhaust system is so ridiculously designed, that if I were able to squeeze my HHO in there, it would literally be sitting on top of the exhaust pipe.
I'm not too horribly concerned about getting closer to the engine because I know I've already reached the max HHO output that my engine will accept without mods. So getting it closer for production purposes is kind of a moot point.

That's really great it works for ya like that. I don't think it worked for me in the rear. Anyhow I had room undr the front of my suv an made a frame bracket to mount my flooded system and managed to find a plastic thermos and mounted it under the intake wit the thermos inside a coffee can with sand,,, thought I'd tell this story..

[Mindcrime13]

did you modify any electrical componets? ECU, o2 , maf?

did you got this gains with out tinkering with the air ful mix?
also did you try the bubbler and the water vapor trap connected with the tube? how did that go?


keep up the good work!

[HHOhoper]

Mindcrime13,

I have not made any modifications to the ECU, MAF, O2 sensors, or A/F ratio/mix whatsoever.

I did try the new bubbler design and I absolutely LOVE it! It completely solves the back vacuum problem! I did a few modifications from what I previously posted and I'll put new diagrams on here.

---------------

First of all, the bubbler. I'm attaching pics of my new bubbler design. All I did different was remove the hoses that connect the containers at the lid. The only connection is the hose at the bottom. In Phase 1 you see that the water levels are equal as the pressure is equal. When the generator starts producing HHO, it pushes the water into the other container until it reaches the hose. Then the HHO starts bubbling through that line and out through the water. When the generator is off, if there is any remaining vacuum, the exact process will occur only in the opposite direction. So far it's working like a charm and I don't ever have to do anything to it.

As far as the update to my dad's vehicles. The Tahoe is not showing any improvement whatsoever. He's still going to be testing different output amounts to see if he can find that magic amount.

Their motorhome is a different story entirely. The just returned from Lake Powell which is about a 6-7 hour drive away. Well he said that on the way there, they were averaging about 7-8 MPG. On the way back he was getting 13! And what's more interesting is that the return trip is mostly uphill! So there's a huge success!

What we've noticed is that the older cars are doing MUCH better with the HHO than the newer ones are. The Suburban and motorhome are both '94's. The Tahoe is a '98. My Grand Prix is a '00 and it has a solid 2 MPG average increase. I noticed that around town it's not doing a thing, but my freeway miles have gone from 28 to about 33.

Last night I finished putting the exact same system on our 2000 Grand Cherokee. I'm going to let it break in for a few days and then do the HHO volume test.

So the trek continues.....

[HHOhoper]

:(

I've done extensive testing on the Jeep for the past few days and have burned a LOT of gas! NO improvement whatsoever. I'm really thinking that going through the manifold instead of the air box is a good next step but the problem I have is the large vacuum that it would place on my system. I heard a suggestion of maybe putting a check valve somewhere that will let outside air in, but I'm not sure how that would work exactly. ANY suggestions????.....Anyone????.....Please???...... ..:confused:

[Painless]

:(

I've done extensive testing on the Jeep for the past few days and have burned a LOT of gas! NO improvement whatsoever. I'm really thinking that going through the manifold instead of the air box is a good next step but the problem I have is the large vacuum that it would place on my system. I heard a suggestion of maybe putting a check valve somewhere that will let outside air in, but I'm not sure how that would work exactly. ANY suggestions????.....Anyone????.....Please???...... ..:confused:

If you attach short piece of tubing to your generator and place a check valve on the end of it, which will allow air to flow into the gen but not out, this will achieve the desired result.

[Carolinablue]

Where do ya get these checkvalves? I tried Autozone and they didn't have anything like it.

[HHOhoper]

Yes, where?

Also, do you think I should get a check valve (to ease the vacuum pressure as I mentioned earlier) that only opens at a certain PSI? What would be the best route on that taking all things into account?

[daddymikey1975]

If you attach short piece of tubing to your generator and place a check valve on the end of it, which will allow air to flow into the gen but not out, this will achieve the desired result.

by doing this, won't we be creating a vacuum leak ? (from the engine's perspective)

I thought i read somewhere (can't remember now) that a guy used some type of 'flow control' device in line with this method to alleviate this dilemma without using the check valve on the gen. this limits the amount of total vacuum on the generator.

just my .02

mike

[Painless]

There won't be a leak as such, as we are only allowing air in. This would only happen when the pressure in the gen fell below outside atmospheric. Theoretically, our gens go above atmospheric psi when they are on and pumping gas.

Another idea is to use a solenoid valve that is open when there is no power. Therefore, when the gen is on it will be sealed and able to breath when its off.

Only issue I can see with the solenoids is that they seem to be very expensive.

[HHOhoper]

All very good points.

Here's the problem. We tried going straight through the manifold on my dad's suburban and the pelican case lid looked like it was going to collapse in on itself. I know my system can handle being sealed enough to handle the outward pressure of the HHO being produced until it can make it to the engine, but I really doubt that it can handle the full vacuum of the engine while it's running.
:mad:Oh this is frustrating!
I never really thought about the vacuum leak thing. Mike, do you have ANY clue where you read about that "flow control" device?

[daddymikey1975]

[QUOTE=Painless;17756]There won't be a leak as such, as we are only allowing air in. This would only happen when the pressure in the gen fell below outside atmospheric. Theoretically, our gens go above atmospheric psi when they are on and pumping gas.
\QUOTE]

when they're on and pumping gas, they would have to produce enough gas to overcome the negative pressure from the engine vacuum in order for the check valve to not be a vacuum leak. In other words, we'd have to have more gas than what the engine can consume via vacuum. otherwise the check valve would create a vacuum leak.

HHOhoper, It was either this forum, or Fuel-Saver dot org.. they have a HHO section as well. The guy that submitted the idea, was using engine vacuum and claimed he put a 'flow control' device between the gen and bubbler ( i believe) to overcome the water ingestion thing. I'll see if i can find it.. the guy i speak of was responding to a fellow that thought engine vacuum was the worst idea.... blah blah... man, it just escapes me.. let me go look around..

[daddymikey1975]

HHOhoper, i did find this thread. it's an interesting read.

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=651&highlight=bubbler+flow

still looking for the flow control thread for you.

mike

EDIT: I found this method.. seems as if painless is correct about the check valve :)

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/showthread.php?tid=2178

still looking on flow control lol

[daddymikey1975]

HHOhoper

I found the thread where I read about flow control.
link:

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/showthread.php?tid=2051

cjpeaceful (member there) has some good info halfway down the page.

I hope this helps everyone.

I did a search over there for "vacuum" and some GREAT topics came up just FYI.

mike

[Painless]

Mike,

Thanks for posting those links, I read through both and am now seriously considering teeing off my HHO line and connecting it to the vacuum as well as the throttle body.

I also registered on the forums over at fuel-saver.

Thanks again, good information!

Russ.

[Carolinablue]

Mindcrime13,


I did try the new bubbler design and I absolutely LOVE it! It completely solves the back vacuum problem! I did a few modifications from what I previously posted and I'll put new diagrams on here.

---------------

First of all, the bubbler. I'm attaching pics of my new bubbler design. All I did different was remove the hoses that connect the containers at the lid. The only connection is the hose at the bottom. In Phase 1 you see that the water levels are equal as the pressure is equal. When the generator starts producing HHO, it pushes the water into the other container until it reaches the hose. Then the HHO starts bubbling through that line and out through the water. When the generator is off, if there is any remaining vacuum, the exact process will occur only in the opposite direction. So far it's working like a charm and I don't ever have to do anything to it.

.

I kinda like this setup. I took 2 water bottles and gooped them together joined by a tube at the bottom. Filled them about a 1/4 full of anti freeze and vinegar and water mix, works like a charm without sucking water back in the gen.
Thanks

images on post 43

[daddymikey1975]

Mike,

Thanks for posting those links, I read through both and am now seriously considering teeing off my HHO line and connecting it to the vacuum as well as the throttle body.

I also registered on the forums over at fuel-saver.

Thanks again, good information!

Russ.

you're quite welcome. Once my gen is built then i can begin in-car testing. I hope u get the results you've been looking for. I too watched all of RadGenH2O's videos on youtube. That guy is persistent and fairly thorough.

keep up the good work.

mike

[HHOhoper]

It sounds like we're getting closer to maybe making some good ground here. I reset both the computers in the car and Jeep last night and will be driving them for the next little while to see what affect there is.

After reading those posts on PCV valves, and tapping in to the vacuum AND the air box, I'm a little confused as to how all the issues are resolved. I think I just need to think about it some more.....

[Painless]

It sounds like we're getting closer to maybe making some good ground here. I reset both the computers in the car and Jeep last night and will be driving them for the next little while to see what affect there is.

After reading those posts on PCV valves, and tapping in to the vacuum AND the air box, I'm a little confused as to how all the issues are resolved. I think I just need to think about it some more.....

Don't mean to down your hopes on the Jeep, but I've been through many computer resets on my Ram to no avail.

I'm off work tomorrow and Tuesday, so I'm going to work on linking HHO to my PCV vacuum and take a test drive. I'll let you know.

[HHOhoper]

Well I'm not sure that I really had much hope on the computer reprogram to begin with. I pretty much figured it would only really help if you actually made a change somewhere else like O2 sensors, etc. It was more of a rule-out that an actual hope for improvement. I'm holding my breath on your tee-off plan to see how that works.

[daddymikey1975]

Don't mean to down your hopes on the Jeep, but I've been through many computer resets on my Ram to no avail.


as a side note on these dodges.. I noticed in the service manual of my caravan (granted its an older one, and I really don't envy you guys) that dodge developed a sense of humor... they have sensors to monitor the sensors... and the computer is the last thing to know about it LOL ... I haven't looked at a service manual for either of you guys' vehicles but I'm willing to bet there's something else (besides the O2 sensors, and/or map/maf) that needs adjusting to make the computer lean out the mix... If either of you were to forward the schematic to me (via email) i'd be happy to look at it and offer what little advice I can.. what leads me to believe this, is the very nature of the 'OBDII trouble codes'.. listed with my van are the usual ones, lean mix, rich mix, too much/little egr flow, etc.. BUT there's other codes that tell you 'hey, i didn't even get a reading on this one' so there's monitors, watching the sensors, that monitor the actual sensors (i think)... you guys may have to forget everything you know about O2's, efie, map/maf, etc.. and look for the tree in the forest and start from scratch...

again, just my .02.. :)

[Painless]

as a side note on these dodges.. I noticed in the service manual of my caravan (granted its an older one, and I really don't envy you guys) that dodge developed a sense of humor... they have sensors to monitor the sensors... and the computer is the last thing to know about it LOL ... I haven't looked at a service manual for either of you guys' vehicles but I'm willing to bet there's something else (besides the O2 sensors, and/or map/maf) that needs adjusting to make the computer lean out the mix... If either of you were to forward the schematic to me (via email) i'd be happy to look at it and offer what little advice I can.. what leads me to believe this, is the very nature of the 'OBDII trouble codes'.. listed with my van are the usual ones, lean mix, rich mix, too much/little egr flow, etc.. BUT there's other codes that tell you 'hey, i didn't even get a reading on this one' so there's monitors, watching the sensors, that monitor the actual sensors (i think)... you guys may have to forget everything you know about O2's, efie, map/maf, etc.. and look for the tree in the forest and start from scratch...

again, just my .02.. :)

I think, from what I've seen, that HHOHoper and I are definitely dealing with a very stubborn ECU setup. I wish I could afford to at least get a scanguage and hook it up to my laptop so I can see what is going on.

If you're interested, I have a copy of the service manual for my Ram in PDF form, uploaded to my webserver.

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf)

[daddymikey1975]

I'll take a peek at it tonight when i have a bit more time and see what insight i can offer.

[HHOhoper]

HHOhoper

I found the thread where I read about flow control.
link:

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/showthread.php?tid=2051

cjpeaceful (member there) has some good info halfway down the page.

I hope this helps everyone.

I did a search over there for "vacuum" and some GREAT topics came up just FYI.

mike



Hey Mike,

I only really saw where he mentioned about the ball valve, but I didn't see anything about controlling the amount of vacuum. Jaxom made a good point in Painless' thread that putting a ball valve in the line merely slows the vacuum rate, but doesn't control it (the vacuum will slowly get bigger and bigger on the generator) which is what I can't have. Is it in there and I just missed it or where you just referring to the ball valve?

[daddymikey1975]

no, i apologize, i was only referring to the ball valve... what you need is a 'vacuum regulator'.. so you can keep a constant 1 or 2 inHg regardless of engine vacuum... (or no MORE than the limit you set)

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5Z763

will this work?

just poked around..

[HHOhoper]

Can it really be that simple?? How does this differ from a partially opened ball valve? Do you know? If this turns out to be the missing link, my children's children will praise the name of daddymikey1975.

[daddymikey1975]

Can it really be that simple?? How does this differ from a partially opened ball valve? Do you know? If this turns out to be the missing link, my children's children will praise the name of daddymikey1975.

a partially opened ball valve will still allow continued suction until it either blows the money shot (LMAO) or until your gen implodes lol..
a vacuum regulator should "vent" any excess vacuum or only allow a limit that you preset.. so it would reach a certain level of suction and maintain as opposed to continuously sucking..

although, as an afterthought, if your engine vacuum was exceeding the amount the regulator sets, wouldn't it cause a vacuum leak... hmm... painless or jaxom what are your thoughts on this as a possible solution ??

again, just poking around and offering my .02

[daddymikey1975]

If you're interested, I have a copy of the service manual for my Ram in PDF form, uploaded to my webserver.

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf)


Russ, I checked out the service manual as long as my wife would let me ignore everyone LOL...

your truck has some interesting things going on. I'm a remote start/accessory installer by trade and the dodges are the most challenging electrical systems to interface with for many reasons.

Looking at your service manual, what's going on here, is that the computer isn't merely making adjustments from some sensor inputs like most cars do. yours also monitors the PERFORMANCE of each of the sensor inputs as well as communications with each and every 'module' all in sweet (or bitter) harmony.

for example, there's a way the truck can monitor barometric pressure (who knows why) and it probably compares it to the readings from the MAP and can calculate how well the MAP is working and adjust accordingly. As another example the ECU monitors not only the Oxygen level in the exhaust, the heater circuit of the sensors, but the PERFORMANCE of the sensors by comparing their signal to other signals that the computer is reading as it's adjusting the fuel mixture....

when you put the O2 extenders on, the truck knew that the sensors were performing poorly, and opted to 'look the other way' and use the MAP and TPS and barometric pressure to guess at the proper A/F mixture (i'm speculating) and that's why you weren't able to realize any gains.

in order to get your ECU to work with you you may need dual EFIE's as well as some other mods all in conjunction to make it work (i think)

any one else have input on this ?? jaxom ??

mike

[Painless]

Russ, I checked out the service manual as long as my wife would let me ignore everyone LOL...

your truck has some interesting things going on. I'm a remote start/accessory installer by trade and the dodges are the most challenging electrical systems to interface with for many reasons.

Looking at your service manual, what's going on here, is that the computer isn't merely making adjustments from some sensor inputs like most cars do. yours also monitors the PERFORMANCE of each of the sensor inputs as well as communications with each and every 'module' all in sweet (or bitter) harmony.

for example, there's a way the truck can monitor barometric pressure (who knows why) and it probably compares it to the readings from the MAP and can calculate how well the MAP is working and adjust accordingly. As another example the ECU monitors not only the Oxygen level in the exhaust, the heater circuit of the sensors, but the PERFORMANCE of the sensors by comparing their signal to other signals that the computer is reading as it's adjusting the fuel mixture....

when you put the O2 extenders on, the truck knew that the sensors were performing poorly, and opted to 'look the other way' and use the MAP and TPS and barometric pressure to guess at the proper A/F mixture (i'm speculating) and that's why you weren't able to realize any gains.

in order to get your ECU to work with you you may need dual EFIE's as well as some other mods all in conjunction to make it work (i think)

any one else have input on this ?? jaxom ??

mike

Oh my gawd! Can't I just hit it with a hammer?

Its a good job I'm a big fan of the blues.

[HHOhoper]

You have got to be kidding me. Making the car GO wasn't good enough and they had to go and give the stupid thing a brain.
Painless, when you open the door and get in your truck, do you hear a smooth woman's voice over the speakers say, "good morning, Russ?"
Auto manufacturers should be ashamed of themselves. All of that ridiculous technology and cars aren't more than 25%-27% efficient?? Please!!!!

Russ and Jason, did you see Mike's suggestion on the vacuum regulator? After talking to Jason, (I'm just taking a stab here) I think this would be definition cause a vacuum leak if the regulator vents and let's air in to compensate for the vacuum. I just have to try and put as much vacuum on my system as I can possibly get away with and hope that the vent isn't so much that it negates the HHO benefit. What do you guys think?

[Painless]

HHOhoper,

I've been out making more mods and fine tuning before I take my truck anywhere today. I've installed a filter before the vacuum packed with screen door mesh to stop huge globs of water going through and I've tuned my ball valve to the point where flow is occuring but not drinking from my main bubbler or reservoir. Hopefully, this will be enough to prevent a sizable leak.

I'm currently responding on my blackberry from my 'office' *cough*, I'm going to grab some brekky next then take a ten minute run to the garbage dump (does the glamour ever stop?). If all is ok, I will have three 80 mile runs to work and back over today, thursday and friday to monitor results.

My CEL is still on with the cylinder 7 misfire code from my earlier efforts to strangle my engine and I'm wondering if I should leave it be or reset my ECU today first or not.

[HHOhoper]

Sounds good. Man, I really hope we can make some ground here. This is so frustrating.

I really want to get several opinions on how this device would work to control vacuum on my system. Anyone want to have at it?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5Z763

[Jaxom]

Matt you're right about that relief valve. It will just let air into the genny to keep the vacuum at the preset level, which effectively creates a vacuum leak whenever the relief valve opens. Combine that with a restriction (ball valve) on the vacuum source and you will have a controlled intermittent vacuum leak. That sounds bad but honestly it probably wouldn't be enough to cause a problem. The only bad thing is, when you floor it and manifold vacuum drops, the vacuum still present in the genny will suck air FROM the intake through the restriction to equalize the pressure, which means on sudden acceleration or heavy load you'll lose HHO delivery for a short time.

As far as the intelligence level of modern PCMs, they are incredibly smart but lack common sense. They do monitor the sensors directly for "out-of-range" issues, as well as comparing the readings to other sensor conditions as a sort of reality check. They will also check for certain sensor changes during certain operating conditions....for instance, the O2 readings should spike lean when the EGR valve is commanded to open. If the PCM doesn't see what it expects, it will set codes. However, the simplest things can go unnoticed. I see Ford products all the time with high/rough idle and stalling problems caused by severe vacuum leaks (they have a known problem with the PCV hoses rotting away due to oil vapor exposure.) These often come in with no check engine light and no fault codes set, even though the engine will die anytime you let off the throttle suddenly. You'd think that would be an obvious sign that something's wrong, but the computer doesn't pick up on it.

[HHOhoper]

I'm thinking about giving it a shot. I was surfing around and I stumbled upon a device called a non-relieving vacuum regulator. From what I read, it doesn't vent to atmospheric pressure to acheive the desired vacuum. The one I saw was an big industrial one though. I want to do some more poking around to see if I can find one that's a little more precision and MUCH less expensive.
One complication leads to another. Gotta love it.

In regard to what you were saying about the vacuum leak, etc. I guess I'll just have to but a brick behind my gas pedal so I can't floor it anymore! :D I don't think I should be expecting to get good MPG like that anyway.

[HHOhoper]

I know that there is a whole measurment system to measure vacuum pressure, but I have no idea how to quantify any of it. How much vacuum will a manifold generate in the unit of vacuum measure?

I was looking at this regulator which provides all it's specs but I have no clue how it compares to what a manifold will do:

Click Here (http://www.poweraire.com/vacuum-regulators-v900-series-vacuum-regulators-c-36_233_565.html?osCsid=d535a03aa28d8e46e73f92fa901 737ae)


Here's another one I'd like to hear opinions on:

Click Here (http://www.smcworld.com/2002/bp_e/pdf/3310_002.pdf)

Help?

[Jaxom]

Actually there are a few different measurement standards for vacuum. Inches of mercury ("Hg) is still the most common in the US, inches of water is also used for high-precision measurements. 0"Hg is atmospheric pressure, total vacuum is ~30"Hg. The rest of the world uses pascals or kilopascals (kPa) which is the metric measurement for both pressure and vacuum.

Automakers don't even use the concept of vacuum anymore when it comes to engines....it's all done in abolute pressure. Total vacuum is no pressure, or 0kPa. Atmospheric pressure (no vacuum) is 101kPa absolute (give or take depending on elevation and weather conditions.) This is a bit confusing at first (it seems kinda backwards,) but it's really much simpler once you get your head around the concept that vacuum doesn't exist. It's just a name for a space with less pressure than another space. This is where the name MAP sensor comes in....it stands for Manifold Absolute Pressure.

[Jaxom]

On those regulators...the first is a bleed-air type regulator which means it just leaks in air to keep the vacuum under control. Not good for automotive purposes. The second one may be more reasonable, but it's a bit bulky looking.

For reference, most engines idle at around 20-22"Hg which is a MAP of ~30kPa. It can spike lower than that on sudden deceleration, my IROC has shown as low as 8kPa while tuning. WOT will typically show MAP readings around 98-100kPa (0-1"Hg.)

[HHOhoper]

So with a rating of -100 to 1.3 kPa, I should be okay? So if I'm shopping around, just try to make sure that it can handle at least 100 (+/-) kpa?

I dunno boys, I'm to the point to where I think I just might have to accept defeat on this @*#$ Jeep. I'm just not seeing anything realistic that will make all this hassle worth a few bucks in MPG.
If there was a solid apparatus that could handle this vacuum issue, maybe, but I have looked and looked and shopped and called and no one can really offer any solutions. The only other solution I can think of is to COMPLETELY start over and build a whole new system that can withstand any vacuum an engine could dish out. IF I ever get to that point it will be far down the road after all I've financially invested into this already. For me it's becoming a matter of loss control. The whole point I've done HHO is to try to SAVE money!
I've learned a lot, that's for sure. If I had an HHO friendly vehicle, it would definitely be worth it. I guess as it is, I'm still reducing emissions to a certain degree, I'm just not saving any MPG, right?

I just read Smith's latest update about how his engine is doing after removing the HHO from this engine. Kinda depressing. I made myself a "deal" when I first started this. In order for it to be worth the time and effort, it had to be A - a way to save money in fuel costs, B - it had to be completely reversable for re-sale purposes, C - had to be safe, D - had to require a reasonable to little maintenance. It doesn't look like in the case of my Jeep I'm meeting that criterion.
My car has the identical system so I have the same problem there. I did, however, see a slight improvement in MPG so I'll keep it in the car. Hopefully my future cars are more HHO friendly.

[daddymikey1975]

Hoper, how much output are you getting out of your HHO gen??

over in Painless' thread, he made mention that he closed the ball valve completely, let some pressure build up in his gen for a short time, then opened it fully and really noticed his truck run differently but briefly... (in his Painless experiment thread)

what i'm wondering for you and him is if your gens are putting enough HHO into the motor?? i know his is around 1.5 LPM and i'm not sure about yours, but what if you had enough stuff to build 2 of yours, or whatever.. and give these stubborn hogs about 3 LPM ?? just to see if it would respond positive or negative... if we can just get it to do something, then we can alter fuel ratios etc...

what do you think???

mike

[Painless]

Hoper, how much output are you getting out of your HHO gen??

over in Painless' thread, he made mention that he closed the ball valve completely, let some pressure build up in his gen for a short time, then opened it fully and really noticed his truck run differently but briefly... (in his Painless experiment thread)

what i'm wondering for you and him is if your gens are putting enough HHO into the motor?? i know his is around 1.5 LPM and i'm not sure about yours, but what if you had enough stuff to build 2 of yours, or whatever.. and give these stubborn hogs about 3 LPM ?? just to see if it would respond positive or negative... if we can just get it to do something, then we can alter fuel ratios etc...

what do you think???

mike

I'm running 2.3 LPM into mine...

[daddymikey1975]

I'm running 2.3 LPM into mine...

Oh wow... for some reason i thought you were only at 1.3... that's so bizarre that you're stuffing that much stuff into your truck and it has no idea... what a dumba$$ truck LOL...

still kind of odd that when you closed your ball valve for a minute, then opened it up you definitely noticed your truck respond....

i'll think on that for a day... unless you come up with something else.. i dunno.. wonder what Smith03jetta thinks about this...


mike