opinions on my cell plz

[Haywire Haywood]

I had this worked out after I became disillusioned with that runyourcaronwater plan. Because I didn't have room under my hood for 16" of cpvc pipe, I figured out how much active surface area there was in the stainless pipe configuration they wanted and converted it into a stacked plate array. I thought if active surface area was the deciding factor on HHO production, this would have just as much or more in a much more compact size. It is what you guys call a brute force system, no neutral plates. It is 2.5" high and the plates vary in width from 3.75 at the center to 2.5" at the ends to fit vertically down into a shorter 4" piece of schedule 80 cpvc that the plan called for. They're 16ga stainless of unknown alloy (whatever the welding shop had scrap of) and are spaced at 1/16" with nylon washers. Now that I found this forum and have been reading (till 2am last night...:eek:) I question whether it's worth pursuing further. I just bolted the plates together to give you a visual. The bolts would be replaced with something to isolate the plates from each other. What do you think? --Ian

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/cell2.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/cell1.jpg

[hydrotinkerer]

If they are hooked +-+-+-etc. I see heat and amps galore. Some guys say 6-7 cell is best. I believe there is 22-23 plates there(eyes failing). The 2 volt per cell for reaction, anything lower and low or no reaction, anything higher results in wasted heat and amps. I run a +nn-nn+ 7 plate cell.

[Haywire Haywood]

I had planned for all of the plates to be hooked up in parallel so they would all feel 12vdc rather than a series where there would be a voltage drop from pair to pair. My thinking was that since most plate systems I've seen have around 6" plates and mine are only 2.5 that more wouldn't be bad. Am I off the deep end? I was flailing in the dark when I came up with it.

thanks,
Ian

Edit: By "cell", are you referring to a pair of plates or single plates?

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hey Haywire,

Lots of plates there looks like 23 or so, you might think of making at least 30% of them neutral plates to bring down the amps and heat. Also because of the round cell configuration voltage leakage will be high so wrapping the cell could help bring down the heat to.

Best of Luck
Fuzzy

[Haywire Haywood]

thanks fuzzy, I'm considering the neutrals. If I do a +nn-nn+ config, it would end up being 6 pairs of powered plates in parallel with 2 neutrals between each pair and I'd have to drop 3 plates from the pack. +NN-NN+NN-NN+NN-NN+

If I do a +N- config, I'd end up with 10 pairs of powered plates in parallel and I'd have to drop 2 plates from the pack for it to come out even. +N-N+N-N+N-N+N-N+N-N+

The problem is that since my design is powered through solder joints at each plate, once it's assembled, reconfiguring it will be labor intensive. Once it's together, it's together and any changes will basically mean chucking this one out and building a new one from scratch. The next one will have tabs and will be entirely bolt together.

What do you guys think the effect of more smaller plates vs fewer larger plates will be?

Ian

[BoyntonStu]

The SMALLEST plate size determines the active area of your cell.

All plates that are larger than the smallest plate are wasted steel and they are just taking up space.

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[Haywire Haywood]

I can see the logic there. The smallest plate in each pair would dictate the size of the active area on the other plate. I think I'm going to go +n- and see what it does.

Ian

[ridelong]

Haywire Haywood,

I think that if you laid out +nn-nn+nn-nn+nn-nn+nn- , that would use all 22 plates. I run mine +nnnn-, seems to help with heat. The amount of electrolyte will affect the amount of current you can run due to the electrolyte heating. More electrolyte, more current you can run.

While the smallest plate determines the cell area, you are making a multicell generator. So the larger plates in the center are larger cells, not affected by the smaller end cells.

[computerclinic]

Haywire,
what sort of solder are you using? I had used solder in one of my earliest experiments and had a ton of brown water as a result, since then, I have put nothing but SS or nylon in the generator and havent had a problem since.

Solder would come in VERY helpful in some of my later planned experiments and I would greatly appreciate any details about it.
Your cell looks like it produces mad HHO, but it also looks like it will build a ton of heat, too. BTW, excellent build.
Thanks in advance...

[Haywire Haywood]

I really don't know what I'm doing so I can't be very helpful. This is my first cell. I believe the plan talks about lead free silver bearing solder. That is what plumbers are required to use now. If it's not too pricey, I might buy some tomorrow when I go to Lowes looking for that tape to wrap the cell. I did a test with a piece of plate and the 3/32 stainless welding rod I'll be using to connect the plates and was surprised when it worked. I used my oxy/acetyl torch and Staysilv brazing flux on my test plate. The solder I used in my test is generic tin/lead because that was what I happened to have on hand. From what I've picked up reading the past day or two, the soft solder might not last too long in the electrolyte solution. I don't have high hopes for this one actually working well or for very long.

Ian

Edit: If you encapsulated your solder joints with something that would seal it off from the electrolyte, it would solve the problem of it contaminating the water. Pure silicone perhaps.

[EltonBrandd]

Nice work! The problem I ran in to in a similar design is the current leakage. If each plate were exactly the same size the current wouldn't stray as easily. The offset design you have will create massive leakage from the larger plates. If you make them all the same size the current is more likely to jump from cell to cell with less straying current. About Boyntostu'c comments about the smallest plate is the effective size of the overall cell, logic says it is, but my cell procured gas over the entire area of the plate with exception of the plates that were hanging over. Good luck

[Haywire Haywood]

Well, I thought about it and decided to go with the original plan and see what happens... straight up brute force, no neutral plates. I will wrap it to cut down on the current leakage. I'll solder it up tomorrow and encapsulate the solder joints with clear silicone to protect the soft solder from the electrolysis process and the caustic nature of the electrolyte. Will just use plain tap water at first. Maybe have something to report on monday after the silicone cures.

thanks for all the input,
Ian

[justaguy]

Haywire Haywood, Check your inbox.

[BoyntonStu]

Nice work! The problem I ran in to in a similar design is the current leakage. If each plate were exactly the same size the current wouldn't stray as easily. The offset design you have will create massive leakage from the larger plates. If you make them all the same size the current is more likely to jump from cell to cell with less straying current. About Boyntostu'c comments about the smallest plate is the effective size of the overall cell, logic says it is, but my cell procured gas over the entire area of the plate with exception of the plates that were hanging over. Good luck

This is a good example of what you think you are seeing is not what you are really seeing.

Gas is produced over the area of larger plate but the density per sq in is lower than on the smallest plate within the cell.

The net effect is the total gas produced on the largest plate is equal to the total gas produced on the smallest plate.


I hope that this helps.


BoyntonStu

[Q-Hack!]

This is a good example of what you think you are seeing is not what you are really seeing.

Gas is produced over the area of larger plate but the density per sq in is lower than on the smallest plate within the cell.

The net effect is the total gas produced on the largest plate is equal to the total gas produced on the smallest plate.


I hope that this helps.


BoyntonStu

I ran a test several months ago that showed me this very concept. I was trying to generate more hydrogen than oxygen. I had a small fender washer as my positive electrode and a large SS plate as my negative plate with about 1" of gap. I noticed that the laws of chemistry just couldn't be broken... What Hydrogen I had on the large plate was equal to the Oxygen on the small fender washer. The oxygen was fairly large bubbles and the hydrogen were fairly small, but it definitely didn't produce more Hydrogen like I was hopping. What can I say, High School chemistry was 20 years ago... :D

[Haywire Haywood]

Yea, when you pull an H20 molecule apart, you get 2 H and 1 O no matter which way you yank it.

Ian

Edit.. incidentally, I just finished putting half of my plates together. After Justaguy directed me to someone else that had a design similar to mine, I decided to split the plates into 2 eleven plate cells in series. I somehow managed to short the two sides together. Probably bridged two adjacent plates with solder. When I got the first cell all soldered, I had 48 ohms between what should have been the two isolated sides. I thought what the heck, let's dunk it and see what happens. I got out my 6amp battery charger, switched it to 6vdc and connected it to the plates in a bucket of tap water. It immediately pulled 5amps and I did get some production. If I switched the charger to 12v, the gas production kicked up considerably and the 8amp ammeter on the charger pegged immediately.

Soldering is NOT the way to connect your plates. This I now know. Pain in the rear it is and very time consuming.

[Q-Hack!]

You can imagine my dismay when I realized this. :D My wife had to stop me from banging my head against the wall.

[overtaker]

I think if you wire the middle plates as a separate cell (in parallel) then they would not be effected by the size of the outside plates, only the smallest size plate within that cell. Am I wrong?

[Haywire Haywood]

That seems logical to me. each +- combination is acting independently of what is down the line in a parallel setup.

I got the other half soldered. Hint to anyone that may want to solder stainess. Carburizing Flame is the key on your acetyl torch. If you run an oxidizing flame, the stainless starts to corrode and you'll never get the solder to stick.

I did better this time, 4k+ ohms instead of 48 ohms and when I checked it, the plates were still wet from cooling it. Feeding it 6v drew 6-7 amps and 12v again pegged the charger's 8amp meter. LOTS of scum in the water pretty quick, most likey from either the solder or the brazing flux I was using which is hard to get off. I wrapped it in 2 layers of electrical tape to see what the effect would be and the amp draw was essentially the same. Can't say if the production changed as I was looking down at it in the small bucket I was running it in.

Ok, first two cells under my belt and I learned a little something in the process. On to the next cell.

The negative plate is the one that produced the hydrogen, correct? Would a -+- cell make any more or less hydrogen than a +-+- cell? I'm thinking of 6 or 7 -+- parallel cells in series. I know everyone is using neutral plates but I just can't get my head wrapped around the concept.

Ian

[Haywire Haywood]

Wow.. I decided to hook it up to the truck battery to let it have what current it wanted. I ran it in a glass measuring cup so I could see it better. 4 cups of hot tap water with about a tablespoon of baking soda. It was really going to town producing like mad. I heard the engine respond to the load and then I saw and heard a pop in the the cup. I was holding the 12ga wires to the battery and knew they were getting warm pretty quick but look at the 3/32 stainless welding rod just below where the copper connects.. it had turned into a heating element and was igniting the hydrogen. I disconnected it pretty fast! That was interesting.

Ian

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/cell3.jpg

[FuzzyTomCat]

Wow Haywire,

Those wires look discolored from the heat, have you ever tried streight white distilled vinegar ? With the plate spacing you have Sodium Bicarbonate could be a bad choice even Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide would be ok if your up to the ECO hazzards would be a better catilist for a electrolyte mix.

Fuzzy

[Haywire Haywood]

They should be discolored.. they were glowing red hot to the point that they were igniting the hydrogen ! LOL I was just playing around with it. I read that hot water draws more current so I started with that and probably really over did it with the baking soda so I ended up with a hot rich electrolyte solution.

I drove around town today to all the auto parts houses and nobody had an ammeter. I can see that as becoming increasingly mandatory for testing.

Ian

[justaguy]

Yeah, you were kicking out some amps,lol . As you have now learned, you need an ammeter and add the baking soda just a little at a time until you get to about 15 amps cold. After it runs a while it will probably then go up to 20 amps or more. You also need to use 10g wire or larger. The larger wire will help with more amps and not get hot.

[Haywire Haywood]

here's a pic and short video. charger is set on 6v, pulling about 7 amps. Water temp started at 76, vid and pic were taken at 25min run time. Lots of scum! Oh, water is 5c filtered tap water with 1cc baking soda. Now at 45 minutes it's 96F and still pulling just over 7 amps

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/cell4.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/th_MOV00005.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/?action=view&current=MOV00005.flv)

[Haywire Haywood]

Thinking... if you hooked up several cells in series but they shared a common electrolyte tank, would that in effect make them one parallel cell or would I retain the series config?

Ian

[justaguy]

I have heard mixed opinions on that. Actually true series would be seperate but most are getting good results using the same bath.

[Smith03Jetta]

I saw something in your first photos that I hope you have corrected but it is difficult to see with the tape around the cell. I hope you replaced the Galvanized bolts with Stainless Steel bolts. You don't want that Galvanized stuff in your cell. It will rust and turn your water nasty in no time at all. That mixed with Baking soda is disastrous to your Stainless Steel. Get rid of it immediately. Clean your plates in GoJo hand cleaner and start all over again with Sodium Hydroxide.

[Haywire Haywood]

Yes, the bolts in the original pics were just to show the plate setup. They weren't even galvanalized, just cheapo plain steel. What I planned to use to hold the plates together was stainless #6 threaded rod sheathed in a nylon tube that is 1/4" OD. what actually happened for the test was zip ties. --Ian

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/imh_98/cell5.jpg

[timetowinarace]

Thinking... if you hooked up several cells in series but they shared a common electrolyte tank, would that in effect make them one parallel cell or would I retain the series config?

Ian

It's better to have seperate series cells. You can put them in a single bath with a good size space between them with decent results but there will be an amount of current leakage. Wich ever way, it should be better than a single cell.

[Haywire Haywood]

I think I will put a lexan divider between the cells as wide as the tank. It won't be sealed at the edge, but should help with the current leakage. Will also wrap each cell individually as I assemble them if possible. They'll all be mounted on that sheathed #6 rod.

Ian

[timetowinarace]

I think I will put a lexan divider between the cells as wide as the tank. It won't be sealed at the edge, but should help with the current leakage. Will also wrap each cell individually as I assemble them if possible. They'll all be mounted on that sheathed #6 rod.

Ian

That will work nicely.

Are there neutrals in the cells? I was under the impression the cell you was testing didn't use neutrals. I'll have to go back and read the thread. If no neutrals, I don't see an advantage to wrapping the cells. If there are neutrals droppining voltage in the cell, you are limited to how many cells you can put in series.

[Haywire Haywood]

No neutrals. From what I have read and (think I) understand, neutrals are an attempt to get a series set of plates without actually wiring them, depending on the electrolyte to connect each pair of plates and that is where the current leakage problem comes into play. I was thinking of wrapping them to further isolate them from the adjacent cell.

thanks,
Ian