Progressive HHO distribution methods.

[Roland Jacques]

Progressive HHO gas distribution methods.

Having a set amounts of HHO added to the ICE at low and high RPMs seems kind of half way complete. The ratio of HHO to gas & air can be changing 300% from a 600 RPM idel to a 1800 RPM crusing speed (not to mention hard climbs or acelerations)

Does anybody have a solution to this? Or is this just not an issue and why?

[Jaxom]

It is an issue, and a severely under-addressed one at that. I firmly believe that mileage gains could be much improved by increasing HHO supply under heavy load conditions and under part throttle cruise as compared to maintaining a steady flow of HHO at all times. I've kicked some ideas around about how to achieve this, but haven't come up with anything really good yet.

The best idea I've had is to build a pulse-width modulator that will vary it's output current based on an input signal from the engine's load sensor (whether it be MAP or MAF based.) You'd have to over-build your generator to put out 3 or 4LPM (even if it requires a 40A current draw.) The PWM can regulate the current to say 10A at idle, 15-20A at part-throttle cruise, and 30-40A under heavy loads. Even if the cell would normally overheat at 40A, you can get away with this because you won't be staying under a load for lengthy periods of time, and the cell can cool back down some when the demand drops off. The car's electrical system should also be able to handle short-term current loads of 30-40A....it will simply discharge the battery to keep up with the draw, then when the load is reduced the power consumption of the generator will drop and the alternator can recharge the battery. With a slightly more complex PWM, you could even "tune" the generator to supply more or less HHO at given load points. The major drawback of this is transients....when the load is applied to the engine and the PWM feeds more power to the cell, there will be a delay as the HHO production rate "catches up" to the current and the HHO is fed to the engine. There will also be an excess of HHO if you're accelerating hard and suddenly let off the throttle. There's also the possibility of overheating the cell on heavy loads of long duration (i.e. pulling a trailer up a long hill) but that can be corrected with a temperature sensor/switch in the bottom of the cell that can signal the PWM to reduce the current if temps get too high.

[Roland Jacques]

This does seem like a very logical step in the aplication of boosting . It sounds to me that you have hit the same point of conserns that i have.

The auto responing PMW idea is a great idea. If all it could do is responed to different Rpms would make HHO boosting be much better than what we are doing now. It would not address the delays but i could live with that.

Thier a computor type PWM all in one managment unit, that seems like it would not be that hard for them to add this concept to there VMU. If it could do this along with the other things it does the high price of thier unit would be well worth it IMO. ( it just went up about $90) http://www.hydroxycorp.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=33

[JojoJaro]

I know it may be impractical for some cars, but for those with trucks, you have the option of installing a self-exciting second alternator. Use the 2nd alternator output to power your HHO gen. The higher the RPM, the higher the voltage output of the Alternator, causing you to produce more gas. You must not connect this alternator to a battery for this to work, otherwise the battery will simply 'sink' the voltage down, and if you apply to high a voltage, you will ruin that battery. (Hence the 13.8V regulation limit).

[Painless]

The only issue I can see there is that a varying 'unknown' voltage would be a bad thing where people are tuning their volts per plate. We would need some kind of voltage regulator.

[Jaxom]

Jojo, your idea sounds good but it's impractical. Automotive alternators will produce full voltage at very low RPM...it's the current output that varies with speed. Another issue is that most alternators are overdriven so othat they reach their full current output at 2000 engine RPM or less. This is because most passenger cars cruise below 2k. Therefore, part throttle cruise and heavy acceleration would still generate the same voltage/current and therefore the same amount of HHO. You could counter this problem by using a larger pulley to drive the alternator, thusly slowing it down, but that could lead to drive belt issues, and the fact that you may have to go through a number of pulleys to find the best size for your application.

[Roland Jacques]

Man these are some good ideas,

Jaxom like you pointed out the voltage is constant, so voltage is not a problem, bottom line the booster response to total Watts (amps) Finding the right size pulley/wheel might not be that hard to figure out. Really, you would rig it to have “Max Amps” at say 2500- 3000 RPMs for a V8.
Say you want 3 LPMs at 3000 RPM and 0.5 LPM at 600 RPM the ratio would still be the same. I going to look some more into this second Alt idea It might be a little easier for me to do.

Jojo, like you I have a GMC Savanna Van. It has two AC compressors (one for a refrigerator section that I don’t use) you got me thinking

[JojoJaro]

It might not be a good idea to vary your output based on engine load.

Let me explain why I think so:

First, you have to define what you mean by engine load. It is RPM, or throttle position. Both present some issues.

If you base your load on RPM, what happens when you are 'coasting'. You have high RPM but no load.

If you base your load on Throttle position, when you are coasting, throttle position is zero which means that your HHO genny will produce the least amount of HHO. I believe it should still produce the max. Why, so that you can provide the most power to the engine even when you are not injecting fuel during coasting. I have found that engines (especially the newer ECM controlled variety) will not inject fuel when the vehicle is coasting. The slight engine load will then tend to slow down the vehicle while coasting. If you can provide HHO while coasting, it will provide a little power to your engine thereby increasing the distance you can coast. I believe this is the primary mechanism that contributes to increased MPG - longer coasting time and distance.

I believe the genny should produce its max all the time. While idling, it does no harm. While loaded, it should produce its max. While coasting, it should produce its max. It every situation, it should produce its max.

[Jaxom]

I disagree. I feel that the generator should produce HHO proportional to fuel flow into the engine. We know that you don't run into O2 sensor and EFI issues until you exceed a certain level of HHO usage, although that level varies from one car to the next. With a constant HHO flow, you may be very near that level at idle or coasting, and nowhere near it under acceleration. Therefore, to get the best gains without having to fight the PCM, you should have HHO flow that is proportional to fuel usage. Since actual fuel usage is hard to monitor, engine load is the next best thing.

I also don't agree that you should have max HHO flow while coasting, because even though some EFI system do use what's called DFCO (deceleration fuel cutoff) it's an intermittent function and the PCM still monitors the O2's to make sure eveything is working the way it's supposed to. This could still lead to overrich conditions and check engine lights.

I agree that RPM would not be a viable basis for a progressive HHO setup. TPS is more feasible, although not the best. The best indicator of engine load is the MAP sensor, or MAF if the engine has no MAP. Under acceleration, MAP is high, which indicates heavy load. At idle and coast-down, MAP is very low (high engine vacuum) and this is when you need less HHO to keep from throwing off the engine management. At part-throttle cruise, you have moderate MAP, and moderate HHO is appropriate because you aren't straining the engine, but are maintaining a steady air/fuel flow into the engine. If you go up a hill, load increases, and MAP increases, which will lead to more HHO being injected to compensate for the increased fuel usage.

[JojoJaro]

I disagree. I feel that the generator should produce HHO proportional to fuel flow into the engine. We know that you don't run into O2 sensor and EFI issues until you exceed a certain level of HHO usage, although that level varies from one car to the next. With a constant HHO flow, you may be very near that level at idle or coasting, and nowhere near it under acceleration. Therefore, to get the best gains without having to fight the PCM, you should have HHO flow that is proportional to fuel usage. Since actual fuel usage is hard to monitor, engine load is the next best thing.

I also don't agree that you should have max HHO flow while coasting, because even though some EFI system do use what's called DFCO (deceleration fuel cutoff) it's an intermittent function and the PCM still monitors the O2's to make sure eveything is working the way it's supposed to. This could still lead to overrich conditions and check engine lights.

I agree that RPM would not be a viable basis for a progressive HHO setup. TPS is more feasible, although not the best. The best indicator of engine load is the MAP sensor, or MAF if the engine has no MAP. Under acceleration, MAP is high, which indicates heavy load. At idle and coast-down, MAP is very low (high engine vacuum) and this is when you need less HHO to keep from throwing off the engine management. At part-throttle cruise, you have moderate MAP, and moderate HHO is appropriate because you aren't straining the engine, but are maintaining a steady air/fuel flow into the engine. If you go up a hill, load increases, and MAP increases, which will lead to more HHO being injected to compensate for the increased fuel usage.

Hmmm, it would seem that the best way to handle the problem is to take care of the O2 sensors. I think it is best to have max HHO output while coasting. This will allow you to coast farther and longer. Modifying HHO output because of the finicky problems caused by the O2 sensor seems to me, curing the symptom rather than the cause of the issue.

The sparkplugs still fire during DFCO, right? If so, it will ignite the HHO and provide a little power to allow you to coast longer.

[Nat Hat]

Well all these are very interesting thoughts and all cause very interesting problems. If we up our average production we will eventually overload or overheat and begin to knock(this is bad).
The coasting issue could be handled by running a small vaccum line into the manifold after the idle air control. This would ensure that the motor always gets a little juice. But this line would have have a valve that would only activate at high vac or else it may draw constantly and steal our thunder on the acceleration end of things.
Waiting for the output to pick up would likely be similar to turbo lag on an over plumbed pressurized motor. Only slightly longer. This would possibly cause long-term problems for automatic trannys causing the power to start picking up as you approach shift points. Similar to waiting til the trans is about to shift and then stomping down on it. Once in awhile this wouldn't hurt anything but if it happend constantly it would be rebuildsville for the bulk of us. Manuals would have to adjust their habits based on when the juice picked up.
Just some thoughts from the idiot savant....:rolleyes:

[JojoJaro]

Has anyone actually experienced 'knocking' and 'preignition' from having too much injected HHO? I doubt it.

Preignition due to too much HHO is not a problem for gassers. The compression ratio of gassers are not high enough to reach the self-ignition point of HHO. If you read my other thread on Compression ratio and HHO self-ignition, you will find that the self-ignition temp of HHO is 580C, which is not reached until you have a compression ratio of 12.27:1. Gassers do not have such a high compression ratio.

I do not believe HHO self-ignition will occur in gassers. The only time HHO will ignite is when the sparkplugs fire.

For diesels, HHO self-ignition is a real possibility because of high compression ratios.

[Roland Jacques]

I don’t think the HHO adds anything to coasting if you have a "deceleration fuel cut off". Because without Gasoline the HHO to air ratios are too low to ignite.

[Jaxom]

Jojo: You may be right about high levels of HHO getting the most out of coasting, but what I'm shooting for is a setup that will significantly increase MPG without having to "outwit" the factory computer controls. That way it's simple to install/remove and if the HHO system fails, you don't risk frying the engine.

Nat: The lag problem has crossed my mind. I have high hopes that it will prove to be unnoticable, due to the fact that I've seen a lot of guys report minimal horsepower gains even with systems that provide significant MPG increases. It may cost a little efficiency, but the gains of having plenty of HHO under accelleration should far outweigh the losses of having a lag during throttle transients.

Roland: Good point about the mixture ratio, but I read something not too long ago that stated that hydrogen in air will ignite (although not burn well) with as little as a 150:1 ratio. Airflow into the engine during coast will be as low as 2-3grams/sec, so it would not take much HHO at all to allow ignition.

[JojoJaro]

I don’t think the HHO adds anything to coasting if you have a "deceleration fuel cut off". Because without Gasoline the HHO to air ratios are too low to ignite.

I believe that is incorrect. HHO without Gasoline will ignite when ignited by the sparkplug.

[Roland Jacques]

According to Bob Boyce the ratio of 200:1 is the is the highest ratio of Air to Hydrogen at which Hydrogen CAN Ignite. I think that was for Monatomic Hydrogen Diatomic. H2 Hydrogen ignition ratio is (air) 125:1 (H2).

In a 2 liter engine, it would have to have OVER 6.0 LPM of HHO at 900 RPM idle to even be possible to ignite. Even from a spark with perfect Flash temp. The higher the RPM the more HHO needed to get that 125:1 ratio and on deceleration your Rpm will never be lower than idle Rpm.


To actually get work produced, id guess you need closer to 60:1. So It does not seem possible to get any benefit out of HHO when coasting with a "deceleration fuel cut off" on your vehicles.

[h2ocommuter]

I am not quite sure what is the best way but the variables are somewere along the lineyou all are talking about.

I feel that using a metering oriface that will allow more gas to flow under more presure.
just "I assume " like the natural gas regulators or propain regulators on these type systems.

[h2ocommuter]

I am not quite sure what is the best way but the variables are somewere along the lineyou all are talking about.

I feel that using a metering oriface that will allow more gas to flow under more presure.
just "I assume " like the natural gas regulators or propain regulators on these type systems.

[1973dodger]

Gentlemen,

I don't know what expertise I can bring to this conversation, but one thought is to add a second altenator to the driveshaft by using a pulley between the driveshaft and transmission. This is a ploy commonly used in stock car racing to reduce drag on the motor. The theory is to use the forward motion and weight of the vehicle as the driving force to turn your altenator versus using raw hp to turn the altenator. Of course, this only would apply rear wheel drive and vehicles with the needed clearance to install such a second alt. underneath the car. I'm not sure how this would address the topic of this thread, in dealing with hho needs in "load conditions", but I thought I would plug this thought in, in hopes that those more knowlegeable than myself could take it and run with it.

1973dodger

[JojoJaro]

According to Bob Boyce the ratio of 200:1 is the is the highest ratio of Air to Hydrogen at which Hydrogen CAN Ignite. I think that was for Monatomic Hydrogen Diatomic. H2 Hydrogen ignition ratio is (air) 125:1 (H2).

In a 2 liter engine, it would have to have OVER 6.0 LPM of HHO at 900 RPM idle to even be possible to ignite. Even from a spark with perfect Flash temp. The higher the RPM the more HHO needed to get that 125:1 ratio and on deceleration your Rpm will never be lower than idle Rpm.


To actually get work produced, id guess you need closer to 60:1. So It does not seem possible to get any benefit out of HHO when coasting with a "deceleration fuel cut off" on your vehicles.


Yes, these values from Bob Boyce appear to be consistent with the new data I discovered (posted in another thread).

This is too bad as I was really hoping that my 'coasting' theory would work.

Although I would tend to disagree that lower concentrations is not possible to ignite. According to the data I found (posted in the other thread), Hydrogen Lower Explosion Levels drop proportionally as temps are increased. At sufficiently high temps of a spark, it might be possible to ignite extremely low concentrations of H2. I suspect this is true as there is an inverse relation between H2 concentration to temp, Although I do not have exact data to back me up.

[Boltazar]

My money is on the MAP sensor adjustment to HHO production 1lpm to 5-6lpm. Their might be a lag time at hard acceleration but if you know about it you can plan for it. I don't think it would be that severe anyway.