Finally Installed; But **NO MPG Gain **???

[tbhavsar]

Finally Installed; But **NO MPG Gain **???

I have finally installed the cell in my cars; drove for four days (about 200 miles) to monitor MPG, but I do not see any improvements, please check my setup and comment on improvement needed.

Current Setup:

1) Installed in Honda Accord 1995 LX

2) two separate cell in Series, + n - - n + with wall plates 1/8 gap

3) Gas output > 0.5 LPM (but < 1 LPM) (is this enough?)

4) 15 amp starting current going up to 22 amp after ½ hour of driving

5) Gas out to location close to filter unlike close to Manifold or PCV valve

6) MPG before Install was 27 MPG

Output:

1) Percentage gain ?? %

2) MPG (After Install) ??


Next Step:
1) Remove current Gas Out that is close to Air filter and change location close to Intake Manifold.

2) Install Anti Fouling Spacer (O2 Extender) on the Catalytic Converter; There are two O2 Sensors; one in the front by engine and one in the catalytic Converter.

3) My Current plat spacing is 1/8; I am planning to change to 1/16 and wrap the cell with Rubber Splice Tape from home depot to lower amp that will allow me to add more NaOH to improve gas production.(weblink: http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1077)

Current Issues:
1) No MPG Improvement?

2) My Ignition fuse is showing current even car is turned off, I do not know what is going on here so relay and switch not working as expected for Safe operation. At present I have to manually switch On/Off using Switch close to amp (please see pic)

Questions:
1) Should I install O2 Extender (on first O2 Sensor i.e. close to engine)

2) Should I install EFIE or MAF enhancer

Thanks for your help in Advance.

[Q-Hack!]

Not sure about your car, but I had a hard time trying to find a fuse under the hood that was switched on with the key. I wanted to use my fuel pump fuse, but it is constant powered and switched someplace else. I finally found that my sun roof fuse was one of three fuses that was switchable and ended up using it.

Most fuses have a little point on top that you can touch with a Digital Multimeter. Take a reading with the car off, if you see voltage, it isn't key switch controlled.

[scrode]

HI, I have a 2002 accord lx 4 cyl vtec
I use a map enhancer. without it no luck, with went from 28 to 40 mpg no o2 sensor modifications. I routed it to my vacuum right next to the map sensor. It seems to produce more under vacuum. tried it in the airflow before butterfly with not much improvement. I wired mine to the fuse block in the car to the unfused side of the fuel pump then put a 25 amp fuse inline to generator.

hope this helps

Good Luck

Here's a link to the post I have a couple pics of system in the carhttp://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=998

[tbhavsar]

HI, I have a 2002 accord lx 4 cyl vtec
I use a map enhancer. without it no luck, with went from 28 to 40 mpg no o2 sensor modifications. I routed it to my vacuum right next to the map sensor. It seems to produce more under vacuum. tried it in the airflow before butterfly with not much improvement. hope this helps

Good Luck

Scrode,

Thanks for your input;

where I can locate MAP sensor? where you connected Gasout? do you have pics? (or posted under another thread?) please let me know.

[singnpreacher]

I'm not sure where your map sensor is, but mine is right there on the air intake assembly.

[scrode]

I edited it for pics while you were posting.:D check back to my previous post for pics. The map sensor is right on top of the induction system right after the butterfly hard to miss. it'll say map sensor on it it's only like a 1"X1" plug with wires coming out. The vacuum line right next to it is where I eventually put gas out. I had it connected to the pcv line. It is probably a matter of preference.

[tbhavsar]

I edited it for pics while you were posting.:D check back to my previous post for pics. The map sensor is right on top of the induction system right after the butterfly hard to miss. it'll say map sensor on it it's only like a 1"X1" plug with wires coming out. The vacuum line right next to it is where I eventually put gas out. I had it connected to the pcv line. It is probably a matter of preference.

Also I read somewhere that all cars on and beyond 1996 have electronic fuel control; I will check mine since it is 95 model.

[tbhavsar]

Would Resetting ECU help to consider post modification (since install of Cell) new settings?

[scrode]

wouldn't hurt, but I think it still has a set standard so it would just clear any codes that had been registered.

[Arklain]

Try moving your gas line closer to the air intake, right next to the other line. That should help out performance a little and keep it away from the battery. Also use a spray bottle of soapy water to find any leaks that might have occurred during installation.

[Stevo]

1) No MPG Improvement?


I remember some ppl mentioning that HHO induction actually has an effect on fuel similar or relatively the same as increasing the octane of existing fuel in the combustion chamber. If this is the case, then is your engine a Vtec engine? My Integra GS-R has a B18C1 Vtec engine and it requires 91+ octane fuel according to the owners manual. The point is that if you are already running 89 or 91/93 octane, you may want to try 87 or lower octane for a few miles after resetting your ECM. I know from experience that using a higher octane, when your ignition timing is adjusted for a mid-grade or lower octane will just result in lower fuel economy. If the case is that your Accord engine calls for 91+ like my Acura, then you def might see a good change using the lowest grade octane as HHO is said have the same effect on fuel as increasing your octane or adding octane booster. Try that.

[tbhavsar]

I remember some ppl mentioning that HHO induction actually has an effect on fuel similar or relatively the same as increasing the octane of existing fuel in the combustion chamber. If this is the case, then is your engine a Vtec engine? My Integra GS-R has a B18C1 Vtec engine and it requires 91+ octane fuel according to the owners manual. The point is that if you are already running 89 or 91/93 octane, you may want to try 87 or lower octane for a few miles after resetting your ECM. I know from experience that using a higher octane, when your ignition timing is adjusted for a mid-grade or lower octane will just result in lower fuel economy. If the case is that your Accord engine calls for 91+ like my Acura, then you def might see a good change using the lowest grade octane as HHO is said have the same effect on fuel as increasing your octane or adding octane booster. Try that.

I have 4 cylinder SOHC engine; I am not sure about it is vtec or not. I use reg. gasoline.

[scrode]

My 4cyl vtec uses reg too. It would probably croak:eek: (163,000 miles on it) if I used a higher octane. :p

[tbhavsar]

HI, I have a 2002 accord lx 4 cyl vtec
I use a map enhancer. without it no luck, with went from 28 to 40 mpg no o2 sensor modifications. I routed it to my vacuum right next to the map sensor. It seems to produce more under vacuum. tried it in the airflow before butterfly with not much improvement. I wired mine to the fuse block in the car to the unfused side of the fuel pump then put a 25 amp fuse inline to generator.

hope this helps

Good Luck

Here's a link to the post I have a couple pics of system in the carhttp://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=998

Hi Scrode,

Now, I have found map sensor on my car now; can you tell me the part-number from where you bought that. Also some additional info on wiring would be helpful.

[scrode]

I posted the water4gas design http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=9608#post9608 I built it myself. it's a pretty straight forward design. I got all the parts at radioshack ( I think it only cost me about $12 for the parts). It looks exactly like the one in the pictures that come with the info (except for the lettering on it). Use a volt meter to find the wire that only puts out 5 volt approx., that is the one to the ecu.

hope this helps.

btw, the soldering was easy and not complicated just follow their instructions and refer to the pictures when in doubt. hopefully you can do it yourself. There are some premade on the net for around $40. if you don't have the skills ;)

[Stevo]

My 4cyl vtec uses reg too. It would probably croak:eek: (163,000 miles on it) if I used a higher octane. :p

Yeh, my engine has roughly 156,000 on it and I use 93 octane for reasons I explained in my post. I highly doubt that using higher octane will harm your engine, you will just get crappier gas mileage if your static ignition timing is not advanced enough to handle the octane increase. When I say "static", I mean by actually adjusting the position of the distributor. From that setting the ECM is allowed to dynamically adjust the ignition timing up and down, but only to a certain degree, this is why I mentioned octane and ignition timing because I am pretty sure your engine is set to somewhere around 16 deg BTDC (before top dead center) and if you are adding a decent amount of HHO, then you may see benefits from increasing your static ignition timing to maybe 18 deg BTDC since your regular 87 octane will no longer be acting like 87 octane and much more like 93 or higher. Worst case scenario, you keep your MPG gains and get more power in return.

[tbhavsar]

I posted the water4gas design http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=9608#post9608 I built it myself. it's a pretty straight forward design. I got all the parts at radioshack ( I think it only cost me about $12 for the parts). It looks exactly like the one in the pictures that come with the info (except for the lettering on it). Use a volt meter to find the wire that only puts out 5 volt approx., that is the one to the ecu.

hope this helps.

btw, the soldering was easy and not complicated just follow their instructions and refer to the pictures when in doubt. hopefully you can do it yourself. There are some premade on the net for around $40. if you don't have the skills ;)


Thanks Scrode; One more thing, did you install O2 Extender along with MAP Sensor.

[Smith03Jetta]

You should move the hose closer to the intake manifold.

You should replace the ADD-A-FUSE with a SCOSCHE fuse block. (See my thread) the ADD-A-FUSE wires will melt before long. Mine did. It melted at less than 25 amps.

Where you have the fuse plugged in is PRE-Ignition-RELAY. For all practical purposes you have it hard wired to the postitive post of the battery. Move it to one of the empty accessory plugs. Test it by turning your ignition switch on and off and watch the ammeter go up and down.

Close the plate gaps to 1/16th. This will cut down on some amp draw and produce more gas at less heat. I'm making 1.5 liters at 22-25 amps. You are making only between .5 and 1 liter at the same amp draw.

Replace the clear hose with more sturdy plastic hose. The rubber hose will deteriorate from the heat after a while. You may just want to wait until that happens to replace it with better hose.

The Teflon tape that you have sealed the PVC caps with will not hold up very long. As temp goes up and down repeatedly you will notice leaking around the threads. You will constantly need to tighten the cap to keep it from leaking gas. I don't have a suggestion for sealing the caps. For the money that you paid for the PVC you could have purchased a Pelican case or two and built something that would seal and last a long time.

[scrode]

Thanks Scrode; One more thing, did you install O2 Extender along with MAP Sensor.

No haven't needed to, map enhancer is all I needed.

[tbhavsar]

You should move the hose closer to the intake manifold.

You should replace the ADD-A-FUSE with a SCOSCHE fuse block. (See my thread) the ADD-A-FUSE wires will melt before long. Mine did. It melted at less than 25 amps.

Where you have the fuse plugged in is PRE-Ignition-RELAY. For all practical purposes you have it hard wired to the postitive post of the battery. Move it to one of the empty accessory plugs. Test it by turning your ignition switch on and off and watch the ammeter go up and down.

Close the plate gaps to 1/16th. This will cut down on some amp draw and produce more gas at less heat. I'm making 1.5 liters at 22-25 amps. You are making only between .5 and 1 liter at the same amp draw.

Replace the clear hose with more sturdy plastic hose. The rubber hose will deteriorate from the heat after a while. You may just want to wait until that happens to replace it with better hose.

The Teflon tape that you have sealed the PVC caps with will not hold up very long. As temp goes up and down repeatedly you will notice leaking around the threads. You will constantly need to tighten the cap to keep it from leaking gas. I don't have a suggestion for sealing the caps. For the money that you paid for the PVC you could have purchased a Pelican case or two and built something that would seal and last a long time.


Thanks Smith03Jetta; I will alter my cell plate spacing... also thinking about adding gas out to PCV hose with T connection.

[tbhavsar]

I tried '[+ nn - - nn +]' with gap 1/16 (changed from 1/8). The current have been reduced but it also reduced gas OUTPUT.... I do not understand what is going on here.....Also checked for leaks.

[Painless]

I tried '[+ nn - nn +]' with gap 1/16 (changed from 1/8). The current have been reduced but it also reduced gas OUTPUT.... I do not understand what is going on here.....Also checked for leaks.

I take it that those metal bolts you have going through the plates are insulated from the plates themselves? If not, this might explain your problem.

[scrode]

I agree with painless, and also wrap the plates to keep from bleeding volts on the sides

[tbhavsar]

Before putting plates in the container; I checked the plates connections with multimeter for short (none was found).

Good thing I observed.... the current is staying low at 7amp that does not go over after 1/2 hour driving; I assume heat is under control.

[precaster1@msn.com]

I agree with painless, and also wrap the plates to keep from bleeding volts on the sides

If its wrapped up how do the bubbles get out?

[justaguy]

If its wrapped up how do the bubbles get out?

Wrap only the sides, the bubbles go out the top.

[bigapple]

id try to stay away from using wire crimps like u have it rite now. they work well in keeping the wires together but they are also made of copper and the copper will corrode very fast and possibly arc and cause some major damage.

have the bolts run thru the side of ur generator and seal it with some washers and some silicone (or a high-temp silicone gasket sealer)

mite help u get more power to the plates

[Stevo]

The Teflon tape that you have sealed the PVC caps with will not hold up very long. As temp goes up and down repeatedly you will notice leaking around the threads. You will constantly need to tighten the cap to keep it from leaking gas. I don't have a suggestion for sealing the caps. For the money that you paid for the PVC you could have purchased a Pelican case or two and built something that would seal and last a long time.

I bet you do have a leak. Use Goodyear rubber hose (good quality) or another non-collapsible hose if you can that will withstand the heat. Use hose clamps! :). If you are using PVC, try using either PTFE gas tape (not white teflon) or maybel PVC sealant, Goop Marine Adhesive ect. A Pelican case may work too, but it probably won't fit right with your cells. Plus, they look pretty comical too. :D

[precaster1@msn.com]

Wrap only the sides, the bubbles go out the top.

Do you mean wrap the long sides?

[scrode]

yup wrap around the cell. leaviing the top and bottom open to allow fluid to flow thru and bubble movement out

[tbhavsar]

I bet you do have a leak. Use Goodyear rubber hose (good quality) or another non-collapsible hose if you can that will withstand the heat. Use hose clamps! :). If you are using PVC, try using either PTFE gas tape (not white teflon) or maybel PVC sealant, Goop Marine Adhesive ect. A Pelican case may work too, but it probably won't fit right with your cells. Plus, they look pretty comical too. :D

I agree with both of you; I found that PVC cap is getting loose and having to tight; Now I am thinking about tightening and sealing it.

[tbhavsar]

Wrap only the sides, the bubbles go out the top.

I am using 3" PVC and SS wallplates; with + nn - - nn +; I do not have enough room to wrap cell around. But will certainly try with my new custom plates when they are ready.

[tbhavsar]

Today I tested each cell separately; each cell is consuming 30 amps and producing about .75 LPM; but when I connect in series, current drops to approx 5amp with no gas output at all.

Further, when measured voltage, Cell 1 is showing only 1.7v and another 10.9V. This is very weird. Cell 1 is '+n - - n +' with 1/16 gap and cell 2 is '+nn -- nn+' with 1/16 gap.Please throw some lights what I am doing wrong.