Series cell trouble

[1973dodger]

Just when I thought I had it figured out, I find out I don't. I started out with 6 set series w/ 2 cell per set. I thought if I ran a series cell with multiple parallel cells in each set, I could get the amps to come up, but it did not work out as planned. First a description of the new design; 6 sets of cells w/ 15 3x5 perforated plates in each set(total of 90 plates), all connected in parallel. All cells have a 1/16" spacing. Appx. 2.2 volts / set of cells. All sets are in their own completely seperate bath. Anything over 4 teaspoons of Naoh / quart of distilled water, has no effect on the amperage. The amps start out at 12 amps and end up dropping to 9 amps in a minute or so. My production is 1/2 lpm, pitiful. I made better than that per amp with a Smack's cell. ther does'nt seem to be enough volts to push the current. I am shooting for 6 lpm at less than 40 amps, so I am way off pace. I feel I have wasted way to much money and time, but I hate to give up. Finding the resonance of a WFC seems unobtainable, high voltage/ low current requires to many expensive electronic gadgets. All suggestions welcome.

1973dodger

[Painless]

Ok, if I'm understanding your setup correctly then your problem is that in each parallel set you have 15 plates? This ends up with 13.8v divided by 15 = 0.92v per plate, not enough for electrolysis to start. In each parallel set you need to divide the input voltage by the number of plates in use in the cell. Also, 90 plates is probably way too many from my own experiences.

If you check out my latest experiments in my thread, you will notice that the first thing I tried was 36 plates wired in 6 parallel cell sets, each cell set had 6 plates wired +NNNN-. I was getting production from all the plates, but very much noticeably less as you progressed through them. I managed about 500ml of HHO every 25 seconds with this setup. The next day, I unplugged half my plates and managed a respectable 500ml of HHO every 20 seconds. My conclusion here is that there is just not enough power to generate a respectable throughput here (I was up to over 40 amps). My truck has a 136 amp alternator.

I would recommend making each cell either a +NNNN- or +NNNNN- series and wiring the cell's in parallel with each other. Start with 3 or 4 sets of plates and you should see a lot better production.

I hope this helps and I've understood your setup correctly.

[smartHHO]

Just when I thought I had it figured out, I find out I don't. I started out with 6 set series w/ 2 cell per set. I thought if I ran a series cell with multiple parallel cells in each set, I could get the amps to come up, but it did not work out as planned. First a description of the new design; 6 sets of cells w/ 15 3x5 perforated plates in each set(total of 90 plates), all connected in parallel. All cells have a 1/16" spacing. Appx. 2.2 volts / set of cells. All sets are in their own completely seperate bath. Anything over 4 teaspoons of Naoh / quart of distilled water, has no effect on the amperage. The amps start out at 12 amps and end up dropping to 9 amps in a minute or so. My production is 1/2 lpm, pitiful. I made better than that per amp with a Smack's cell. ther does'nt seem to be enough volts to push the current. I am shooting for 6 lpm at less than 40 amps, so I am way off pace. I feel I have wasted way to much money and time, but I hate to give up. Finding the resonance of a WFC seems unobtainable, high voltage/ low current requires to many expensive electronic gadgets. All suggestions welcome.

1973dodger

Not sure if you know how electronics work, with in regards to Ohm's law or not. Series circuits keep current constant where parallel divide it differently, and then there are series parallel circuits. So, if you know the resistance, and voltage and you pretty much draw the cell circuit out and put these numbers in. You can pretty much get a rough on how much current you will have, and where. If you want to know how the Ohm's law works on series, parallel and series parallel circuits, feel free to PM me and I try and shoot you a drawing. If you know how it works, figure it out on paper and you will see what you need to wire it as to get what you desire for results.

[1973dodger]

Thanks guys for your input. I have checked the voltage across each of my sets, as well as across each of my cells in the parallel sets. All appear to be getting 2.2 volts. I have tried every configuration known, except the Tero Cell, all shapes, sizes and configurations. I have found neutrals work in dropping voltage, but are a real pain in preventing current leakage. From a common sense point of view, I figure why not give the current what it wants, an unrestricted path to the electrode of opposite polarity across from it, and just drop the voltage by putting sets of cells in a series. So all plates are electrically connected.

So what I did was chart a smaller verison of the set up I have, with only 2 cells in each set and based on the output numbers, I used those base numbers to compute what surface area and voltage and amperage was needed to make the desired 6 lpm. Sounds reasonable, right. I have carefully checked to see if any plates were shorted out with each other, I have checked to see if all plates were recieving voltage and were properly connected.

Keep those suggestions coming, I am going camping for a few days, to get some perspective and relaxation. I have been at this for hho thing for many months straight, both day and night. I consider myself fairly persistant, almost obsessed, but unless I can figure this out, I may have to chaulk this up in the "oh well" category. I can't help but think, the $3000 I've spent thus far, on this project, would have bought a lot of gas. Man, it really irks me when I can't figure something out.

1973dodger

197dodger

[webeopelas]

I'm no expert, but from your description, you are showing 2.2V across the 15 plates right? 15 plates gives you 14 individual cells so ideally you would need 28V across that set to drive electrolysis. Then if you have another 15 plates in series, you would need another 28V for a total of 56V needed for that setup.

I really think you are just trying to drive too many plates without enough voltage.

I would reduce the number the plates in each set.

[1973dodger]

Perhaps, I don,t know, but I do know my meter shows 2.2 volts to each cell. So in theory, I have reached my desired voltage to each cell. Now keep in mind I have 6 sets wired up in a series with the voltage in each of those sets wired up to each individual cell in that set. I think what you have described applies to power in a series, not load in a series.

1973dodger

[Painless]

Dodger,

Do you have any pictures or schematics of your setup you could show us? This would help understand exactly how you have things wired.

[1973dodger]

Dodger,

Do you have any pictures or schematics of your setup you could show us? This would help understand exactly how you have things wired.

I'm afraid I do not have a digital camera. If it helps I used the series cell design from this website; http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf Then go to pgs. 31-38. The 2 differences between this design and mine is I have a 6 cell setup and my spacing is closer together. ( I could not get 2 volts to drive my cells, so I opted for the 6 cell series)

Well I'm gone to set beside a mountain stream in the Smokies for a few days, perhaps I'll get inspired. I look forward to reading your replies when I get back.

1973dodger

[1973dodger]

I sure was hoping to have more replies to my series cell trouble when I got back. Anyway, I'll pose the question in a different light. How do you drive up amps in low voltage applications(2-2.5 volts)? My thought was to add more surface area. Is there a limit to how much current can be driven at 2 to 2.5 volts? Obviously you have to have current to make hho and you need low voltage to make hho efficiently in lpm with amperage used. Is it even possible to make 1 lpm for every 5 amps, as is stated in the above mentioned link?

1973dodger

[justaguy]

1973DODGER, I sent you a pm.

[Haywire Haywood]

Looks like you're doing what I was about to attempt to do but I'd be using smaller 2.5" x 2.5" plates and 3 per cell instead of 15. |+-+|+-+|+-+|+-+|+-+|+-+|+-+|

I'd be very interested in seeing what you figure out. Try reducing the amount of plates in each cell or eliminating one cell at a time and see what happens.

Ian

Edit: I found this explanation on series/parallel circuits. Might shed some light on your setup with the help of a multimeter and a calculator. http://www.faqs.org/docs/electric/DC/DC_7.html

[justaguy]

Yeah Haywood, Randy said starting with + and ending with + would increase the hho by 25%. I found that out after I built mine +-+- lol. I might later ad an extra plate to be +-+-+

[Haywire Haywood]

Yeah Haywood, Randy said starting with + and ending with + would increase the hho by 25%. I found that out after I built mine +-+- lol. I might later ad an extra plate to be +-+-+

Nice, I hadn't read that. I was just thinking I could save on plate by having the middle plate reacting with both outside plates instead of having two separate pairs.

Ian

Edit: Wait.. with a +-+- you actually have 3 reactions instead of two with a +-+. Why would you get more HHO with less plate area, unless that has something to do with why his 15 plate series didn't work at all. An example of when more isn't necessarily better maybe?

[1973dodger]

I feel you guys may be on to something here. There appears to be a max. current each set will draw, any more cells will just be diluting the current between them. Beside the obvious of taking some cells out of each set, I am just not sure this will come anywhere close to my goal of 6 lpm at 40 or less amps. I am just at odds about what the next move is. Is it adding another one or two "series/parallel setups" like I have with 1/2 the cells I currently have in the setup I have now.

I do know the "14 parallel cell set" setup I have now in one set by itself will draw 172 amps when hooked to 13 volts(of course I could only leave it hooked up for a couple of seconds to test current draw) When I hooked up 2 sets in a series I was able to draw 104 amps, when 3 sets were wired in a series I was able to draw 72 amps, when I setup 4 sets in a series I was able to draw 45 amps, when 5 sets were in series I drew 25 amps, and when 6 sets were wired in series I drew from 7 to 11 amps. Each time I tested the output with a set being added to the series each time the mililiters/amp grew. Of course I was only able to test the output of the last three configurations, since the current draw was so high in the first three.
I'll do some more playing around with this and post some results.

Another question I have, is it truly volts which causes high temps in our electrolite or is it current. The reason I ask is, does'nt a wire get hot and meltdown because of too much current? I do know you can hold an insulated wire with however much voltage and it will be cool to the touch, yet if you try to push too much current through it, it will get hot. Just makes me wonder if we should be looking into high voltage while limiting current, instead of going for low voltage while trying to increase current. Something to think about.

1973dodger

[1973dodger]

New results testing 7 parallel cells in each set with results from the 14 parallel cells in each set side by side;

# of sets in series / 14 cell set / 7 cell set

1 - /172 amps /237 amps
2 - /104 amps /99 amps
3 - /72 amps /47 amps
4 - /45 amps /27 amps
5 - /25 amps /13 amps
6 - /11 amps /3 amps

Am I to take, from these 2 tests side by side, I might be better off trying more cells in parallel to lower the amps of a single cell? I will try and posts my results. I know this is absolutely backwards from what is thought to be true. No harm in trying though.

1973dodger

[1973dodger]

Oh well. The results for all parallel sets wired in parallel, which amounts to 42 cells in parallel, was 347 amps. Of couse I could only leave it connected for a couple of seconds, in order to make a reading of amps. All of this amounts to 8.26 amps per cell. As where 14 cells in parallel amounts to 12.28 amps per cell and 7 cells in parallel amounts to 33.86 amps per cell. As where a single cell draws 96 amps. All tests were taken with the same spacing to each cell and were taken in the same electrolite bath with the same electrolite concentration. The advantage I see to this kind of amperage is much less, if any, electrolite is needed. Obviously, there is a sliding scale to apply here, and as a previous poster has said on this thread, it will boil down to ohm's law. My point here is, if you look at a cell or a group of cells as a resistor to control current, then maybe this a different way to approach to designing our cells. I think my approach will be to find the optimum voltage to drive a particular group of cells, and then use those cells as resistors to control the current. There are many on this forum more educated than myself who can contribute to or disprove my therory. So all replies are welcome.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

Dodger,

Sorry about the problems your running into.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around what is going on with your configuration. If I am understanding correctly you have six cells. These six cells are wired in series.(or were) In these six cells are 14 or 15(depending on wich post I read) plates wired in parallel. Correct so far?

So how are the parellel plates wired? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-? Where each (+) and (-) is physically connected to the power source. Or if it is 15 plates please show how they are wired.

So with each parallel set in it's own container, there is one positive connection and one negative conection for each cell. These will be wired in simple series: power source positive to cell one positive, cell one negateve to cell2 positive, ect. Correct?

I need to know your excact configuration to help.

What your seeing isn't adding up to me. I'll try to explain what should and could be going on.

Ohm's law is simple. It's a math equation. To put it in simple terms, as you know, voltage pushes current(Amps) through a resistance(Ohms). Low voltage can push a lot of current if there is little resistance. If the resistance is increased, less current can be pushed using the same voltage. On the oppisite end, if voltage is decreased and resistance stays the same, less current can be pushed. Now to apply this to your cell/s.

You have cell1 with X amount of resistance, connected to Y amount of voltage and get Z amount of current. You add cell2(having the same resistance as cell1) in series. This is important: your voltage drops across each cell, more importantly the resistance doubles for the circut. Not considering the voltage drop across each cell for now, think about the resistance of the whole circut. You still have Y amount of voltage, but the resistance is now 2X or double, therefore the current is half. Do this for four more cells and you have 6X amount of resistance, you still have Y amount of voltage, so where is the current going to be? Very low.

Because your voltage(power source) is limited the only way to regulate current in the system is by changing resistance. You might want to try lye to lower resistance if the baking soda isn't doing it. Or even salt. Unless there is a problem with the way your cells are wired. I personally don't see a problem with the number of plates you are using.

[1973dodger]

Dodger,

Sorry about the problems your running into.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around what is going on with your configuration. If I am understanding correctly you have six cells. These six cells are wired in series.(or were) In these six cells are 14 or 15(depending on wich post I read) plates wired in parallel. Correct so far?

So how are the parellel plates wired? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-? Where each (+) and (-) is physically connected to the power source. Or if it is 15 plates please show how they are wired.

So with each parallel set in it's own container, there is one positive connection and one negative conection for each cell. These will be wired in simple series: power source positive to cell one positive, cell one negateve to cell2 positive, ect. Correct?

I need to know your excact configuration to help.

What your seeing isn't adding up to me. I'll try to explain what should and could be going on.

Ohm's law is simple. It's a math equation. To put it in simple terms, as you know, voltage pushes current(Amps) through a resistance(Ohms). Low voltage can push a lot of current if there is little resistance. If the resistance is increased, less current can be pushed using the same voltage. On the oppisite end, if voltage is decreased and resistance stays the same, less current can be pushed. Now to apply this to your cell/s.

You have cell1 with X amount of resistance, connected to Y amount of voltage and get Z amount of current. You add cell2(having the same resistance as cell1) in series. This is important: your voltage drops across each cell, more importantly the resistance doubles for the circut. Not considering the voltage drop across each cell for now, think about the resistance of the whole circut. You still have Y amount of voltage, but the resistance is now 2X or double, therefore the current is half. Do this for four more cells and you have 6X amount of resistance, you still have Y amount of voltage, so where is the current going to be? Very low.

Because your voltage(power source) is limited the only way to regulate current in the system is by changing resistance. You might want to try lye to lower resistance if the baking soda isn't doing it. Or even salt. Unless there is a problem with the way your cells are wired. I personally don't see a problem with the number of plates you are using.

Timeintowrace,

Sounds like you have have a grasp on what I am trying to do. It is a series/parallel circuit with each set of 15 plates(14 cells) wired in parallel and in turn, each set is wired in series. As you have stated, the resistance with that many cells in each set has become counter-productive. I think a common misconception is more lye(or any electrolyte) will lower the resistance of your cell, which is only partially true. It will lower the resistance of the water, true, but it will not do anything to lower the resistance of the type of material(304 SS in this case) you use to construct your cell. So, I think that the amount of lye you use, completely depends on the spacing of your plates. From what experiments I have done, anything over 4 teaspoons per quart of lye has no effect on current with 1/16th spacing, which is no where close to the 28%, by weight, some prescribe to.

I am not sure there is a solution here, there is only, as you have stated, so much current that can be pushed at that low of a voltage though that much resistance. I think my results posted in this thread, speak to a maximum amount of current which can be pushed through a certain amount of resistance at a certain amount of voltage, thusly, if you add more resistance to the circuit with the same voltage, you will adversely effect current. To simply put it, more is not better.

Thanks for your reply.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

Timeintowrace,
I think a common misconception is more lye(or any electrolyte) will lower the resistance of your cell, which is only partially true. It will lower the resistance of the water, true, but it will not do anything to lower the resistance of the type of material(304 SS in this case) you use to construct your cell. So, I think that the amount of lye you use, completely depends on the spacing of your plates. From what experiments I have done, anything over 4 teaspoons per quart of lye has no effect on current with 1/16th spacing, which is no where close to the 28%, by weight, some prescribe to.


1973dodger

Hmmmm. I suppose that NASA, Bob Boyce, and others that have spent their lives working on these things well before they were popular could be wrong about electrolyte consentrations. But the recomended spacing is 1/8". Could be they were wrong about that too.

Personaly, I prefer to use the information learned from years of research before going with the newbies ideas on some things. It saves me allot of time.

[1973dodger]

Timetowinrace,

No need to get huffy, just simply stating what I have found to be true in my own personal experiments. I might also add, just because this forum has deemed it important to put a term, such as newbie, beside a person's name, does not make him the village idiot.(Which is totally dependent on how many posts a person has logged anyway) What I have stated, I will stand behind, The electrolyte only increases the conductivity of the water. If you have experimented and have found out otherwise, please tell me. I can only report on what my very own experiments have revealed, perhaps my lye has losts it's strength or yours is more pure. I am in no way trying to be argumentative, so please don't try to talk down to me. I'm just trying to find out some answers here.

1973dodger

[dhho]

Dodger,
I don't think you are at all wrong in your approach.With the experimenting me and my friends have done there seems to be no true constant rules to true series cells.I had or have a simmilar problem but only 2 plates per cell 6 cells and can't get it to draw amps.My cell has been in use for a couple of months and is making a lot more gas than when first made..7to.9lpm.I am not sure that the realy strong solutions don't get better after a small amount of time or plates condition better after time.In conparison my friend is running 6 cell around 1lpm and amps get too high if he mixes too strong a mix.
Don't give up try running for a while ,try 25 to 28 % mix and let it run for a day or so,it might come good.
This may sound unscientific but I too have been frustrated after spending heeps of money,
Regards,
Mos

[timetowinarace]

Timetowinrace,

No need to get huffy, just simply stating what I have found to be true in my own personal experiments. I might also add, just because this forum has deemed it important to put a term, such as newbie, beside a person's name, does not make him the village idiot.(Which is totally dependent on how many posts a person has logged anyway) What I have stated, I will stand behind, The electrolyte only increases the conductivity of the water. If you have experimented and have found out otherwise, please tell me. I can only report on what my very own experiments have revealed, perhaps my lye has losts it's strength or yours is more pure. I am in no way trying to be argumentative, so please don't try to talk down to me. I'm just trying to find out some answers here.

1973dodger

Sorry, my intent was not to be huffy. I can see how it would appear that way.

My use of the word newbie has nothing to do with this forum and how it labels new posters. I am a newbie to electrolysis. I'm quite sure about every one here is pretty new to hho. My point is simple. Most here are experimenting in the garage or whatever. Very few have done any signifacant research. Most of what is "discovered" here is often false, half truth, and many of the mistakes made could be avoided with accurate information.

Don't get me wrong, experimentation is great. The results of that experimentation is good for others to know. However, people like yourself are spending allot of time and money trying to do what has already been done and the information on how to do it is free and easy to understand.

You think the electrolyte concentration is a misconception. Those that have had success, have been doing this for years, have experimented with a PROPER electroyser, say different. The point I was making in my earlier post is that for me, I would base my designs, my spacing, plate area, voltages, everything on what is known by experts rather than us(yes, me included) newbie garage hho enthusiasts.

I often post information that is ignored or not believed. Doesn't matter to me. I do not take credit for much of the information I post. It is from others work. I rely on information that is available from those that have done this for many years with success.

At any rate, you can continue to believe the youtube videos that are mostly bunk and the various garage experimenters and struggle or you can design and build what is known to work. There is allot of misinformation on this forum. 28% lye consentration isn't one of them.

[justaguy]

I have a modified smack version with two cells in series that runs 20 amps on 1/4 teaspoon of koh. The plates are 1/16. I agree with dodger, the closer plate spacing takes less lye. Garage builders or not, that is a fact. Thats why some people use neutrals, to weaken the current between the plates.

[1973dodger]

Timeintowarace,

Thanks for your explanation. My concern I guess, is the high concentration levels of lye. I know when I start up my generator, the fumes coming off my generator are toxic to breath and I understand that the fumes will be cleaned as they go thru the bubbler, but eventually the bubbler will become contaminated. Who actually knows what long term damage can happen to your engine by the effects of the lye. I know many have said the electrolite stays in our electrolizers, but I seriously doubt this. Anyway , this is my reason for the closer spacing and lower concentrations of lye, besides the fact I have noticed no improvements in current after a certain concentration. I say no improvement, I guess I should say it increases a few mili-amps, just not worth the trade off. I too have researched and read reports from the likes of Boyce, and I will certainly have to yeild to his expertise and I can not argue with his results. I just have not been able to duplicate anything he does.

1973dodger

[donnylynn]

A couple of thoughts based on my own experience. Check all your wiring connections.
1) are any of them loose? or are they loosening up after warmed up?
a loose connection will have higher resistance which will lower current. Heat may cause an expansion that causes something to loosen.
2) are any connections corroded? Spilled NAOH on one of my connecting terminals on the outside of my cell. created a corroded coating that acted like a loose connection.
3) pay particular attention to negative terminals. they seem more susceptable to corrosion.

[1973dodger]

donnylynn,

All connection were checked for voltage, all plates have been checked for shorts. The problem, as has been stated in this thread, remains lack of voltage to push enough current through that many cells. All of points are good ones, but all connections have been painstakingkly checked.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

I agree that with 1/16 spacing, less catalist can be used. I overlooked that.

But 1/8 spacing has been proven to be the optimum spacing for electrolysis. The 28% lye solution is based on that ideal. If there is a misconception on the forum it is with plate spacing, not electrolyte concentration.

I understand the reasoning behind the 1/16 spacing many here are using. It does help to stop current loss when using neutrals in an open bath. Other than that it will hamper production somewhat. Think of thousands of tiny bubbles. Put all those bubbles in two small spaces, one half as small as the other. The bubbles in the smaller space displace more water and catilist restricting current more than in the larger space.

It may seem to be a minute detail but think about it. I believe your first post in this thread said your system drops a bit of amperage shortly after start up. This cannot happen unless voltage drops(unlikely) or resistance increases. Why would resistance in the cell increase? Bubbles.

May not be the whole problem, but it's something.

[1973dodger]

Timeintowarace,

This is a true statement concerning the spacing. I have tested many versions of single cells with various spacing and have found the amp draw was in relationship with the spacing, but as you state, the bubbles do get in the way of current with the smaller spacing. But I am so far off my mark in current draw and lpm, I think I just have to find a different design or live with the higher amps in using fewer sets in series.

Concerning another topic we have touched on, has anyone considered the effects of sodium hydroxide on aluminum heads, some in this forum may have on their cars. As I have previously stated, I believe some element of our electrolite is released in gaseous form with our hho. (why does breathing the vapors coming off our electrolizers cause us to cough?) I know "zerofossilfuel" has made some reference to this gas as being 'chromium something or other". Common sense tells me with the effects lye has on aluminum, it would be a risky proposition to introduce this to someone's aluminum heads. I think one way to test my therory is to put some aluminum foil in our bubblers to see if some sodium hydroxide is contaminating our bubbler water, in seeing if the aluminum is eaten up. something to carefully consider. I am thinking of swithing to KOH anyway, though I am sure there are side effects to it as well. I have not found it locally, I guess I'll have to order it off the internet.

1973dodger

[DaneDHorstead]

I have a modified smack version with two cells in series that runs 20 amps on 1/4 teaspoon of koh. The plates are 1/16. I agree with dodger, the closer plate spacing takes less lye. Garage builders or not, that is a fact. Thats why some people use neutrals, to weaken the current between the plates.


I have read this thread from top to bottom, and have seen electrolyte concentratin reports from 28%, to as little as 1/4 tsp (although it does not say, in what volume of (distilled?) water).....

Also, I note that many responses use 1/8" spacing (0.125"), while this particular design I reply to, uses 1/16" (0.0625"), and I would add that I use

1 teaspoon (per gallon of distilled water), at a spacing of 1.1 mm (0.0435), which is an approximate 2/3 that of the above mentioned 1/16" gap.

I would note that both Stanley Meyers, and Dave Lawton, as well as others, recomend a 0.045" gap, which is only 0.001 off the gap I use.

Everything has tollerance, and with such minute measurements, getting the exact gap control is difficult (but not entirely impossible).

What I don't understand, is how the catalyst ratio can vary to the extent that is reported?

With my 0.045" gap I use three neutrals, between each positive and negative plates (17 plates/16 cells), and I produce right at 0.9 LPM, per generator (3 generators in use). +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+

Note that I have experimented up, and down with electrolyte levels, at the expense of both production and heat, and I have found that even an additional 1/4 tsp of KOH (per gallon) causes a drastic spike in heat.

I also experimented with different configurations, reading comments of others, and decided to do a +NNNNN-NNNNN+ design, but had only the slightest dribble of production (about 1 liter every 6 min, using the same 1 tsp/per gal ratio).

What I read supports the idea that the smaller the gap, the less electrolyte is needed. And in truth, the Myers application, didn't use any electrolyte.

For shitzngiggles I am having some spacers made for me which are 1 mm (0.039"), but that will take time.

[DaneDHorstead]

I should note a slight corrction to the gap measurement, as properly being a 0.0017" difference, where I stated 0.001", as compared to the Meyers ideal gap of 0.045"

[1973dodger]

One point of interest, the single set of cells, which I have previously mentioned, which drew 172 amps when tested in electrolite solution, is also able to draw 32 amps in city tap water. I suppose the minerals as well as the chlorine used in tap water serves as electrolite. If I'm not mistaken, isn't chlorine a derivative of sodium? Just a little useless information, for your entertainment.

1973dodger

[DaneDHorstead]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine

Chlorine is definitly made of Sodium Chloride (salt).

[1973dodger]

Has anyone used calcium hydroxide. I have not been able to find out any information much on it. I do know calcium rates higher in conductivity, in the table of elements than either potasium or sodium. I'm sure someone has tried it, just curious. Calcium hydroxide is also known as pickleing lime.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

I have read this thread from top to bottom, and have seen electrolyte concentratin reports from 28%, to as little as 1/4 tsp (although it does not say, in what volume of (distilled?) water).....

Also, I note that many responses use 1/8" spacing (0.125"), while this particular design I reply to, uses 1/16" (0.0625"), and I would add that I use

1 teaspoon (per gallon of distilled water), at a spacing of 1.1 mm (0.0435), which is an approximate 2/3 that of the above mentioned 1/16" gap.

I would note that both Stanley Meyers, and Dave Lawton, as well as others, recomend a 0.045" gap, which is only 0.001 off the gap I use.

Everything has tollerance, and with such minute measurements, getting the exact gap control is difficult (but not entirely impossible).

What I don't understand, is how the catalyst ratio can vary to the extent that is reported?

With my 0.045" gap I use three neutrals, between each positive and negative plates (17 plates/16 cells), and I produce right at 0.9 LPM, per generator (3 generators in use). +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+

Note that I have experimented up, and down with electrolyte levels, at the expense of both production and heat, and I have found that even an additional 1/4 tsp of KOH (per gallon) causes a drastic spike in heat.

I also experimented with different configurations, reading comments of others, and decided to do a +NNNNN-NNNNN+ design, but had only the slightest dribble of production (about 1 liter every 6 min, using the same 1 tsp/per gal ratio).

What I read supports the idea that the smaller the gap, the less electrolyte is needed. And in truth, the Myers application, didn't use any electrolyte.

For shitzngiggles I am having some spacers made for me which are 1 mm (0.039"), but that will take time.

True but Stan was using resonance and tuned pipes, an advanced method of electrolysis. Dave was replicating Stan's system so it goes without saying that his system would be as close to the same as Stan's as he could make it. Brute Force electrolysis has more limitations and with bubbles on both surfaces of the plates facing each other, it leaves less room for the electrolysis proccess between them limiting production.

For a system like Dodger is building, basic information can be found here.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

Start on page 33.

I hope his seperate parallel cells are wired simular to the ones shown.

[1973dodger]

OK, I tried calcium hydroxide. Production was good to start with, however it appears to have problems with solubility and eventually settles to the bottom, as well as some brown particulate. I believe the solubility is the reason KOH and NaOH are considered the best electrolites.

I've given some thought to the topic of maximum concentration of electrolyte in solution. I believe the 28%, referred to earlier in this thread, refers to KOH. If anyone out there has found a reference to the maximum concentration needed for NaOH, please post for us to view. I would suspect there is a difference, since sodium rates much higher in conductivity than potasium.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

Dodger,

The amp problem you have interests me since I plan to build a simular system. The catalist consentration was a shot in the dark and since your results haven't changed much trying different stuff, it can't be your problem. Your amps should go up as you increase catalist to an extent but that isn't happening. Something else is wrong. Your settup should work with 2.2V applied to each cell. I have some questions to help understand what is going on.

How much active surface area do you have per cell? The number of plates and thier size is known but I don't know excactly how they are wired or if there is some overlap(for lack of a better word) to figure it out myself.

Also, someone already mentioned plate conditioning but it was passed over in the catalist discussion. Have you ran your settup very long? I have found it often takes a few days for plate conditioning then my systems really take off.

Plates have been sanded in a cross hatch?

Catalist consentration is excactly the same for all cells?

Sorry for the basic questions, I'm not trying to insinuate that your inexperienced. Just trying get a grasp on things so I can help and not run into the same issue myself for my six cell setup.

[Haywire Haywood]

About the cross hatching. I tried to use my belt sander, but the belt I had was too fine and it had a hard time with the SS... It's more comfortable with wood. I ended up using my 4" grinder and going back and forth on the plate with a grinding disk in two directions. Worked out well, nice course cross hatch. Just a hint for anyone else.

Ian

[1973dodger]

Timetowinarace,

I'll try to explain as best I can. The plates are 3x5, they are perforated with 1/16th holes 1/4 inch o.c. The reason I chose this style plate, was because I tested many versions of cell configurations, and when tested this configuration drew the most current for the amount of surface area used. I thought, since I would be dividing the current and the voltage when put in a series, I would need as strong of a cell as possible to duplicate. I might also add this style plate yeild the most production per amp of hho. The plates have been sanded and cleaned will acetone then cleaned with denatured alcohol. The plates have a 3/4 by 3/4 notch cut out of one corner of each plate. Then on the opposite diagonal corner a 1/8th" hole has been drilled and tapped to accept an 1/8 threaded bolt. Then the plates are layed on top of each other with the threaded hole on opposite corners from the one next to it. In other words, all the positive plates will have the 1/8th" threaded holes lined up to accept a 1/8th" threaded bolt at one corner. And the same is true of the negative plates, but at the opposite diagonal corner. The notch that was made on the opposite corner, is made to let the bolt pass thru without touching. Each set's configuration is +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ and all plates are electrically connected. So all positive plates are electrically connected by one bolt and all negative plates are electrically connected by one bolt. Now, there also has been 2 other 1/4" holes drilled in the plates in the center appx. 1" from each end. These holes are for a 1/4" nylon bolt, which holds the cell together. The plates are spaced by 6 self-adhesive cabinet door bumpers, which are stategically spaced around the perimeter of each plate, so the plates will not come in contact with the each other. Now I've tried to paint as good of a picture with words as I can. As has been previously stated, all plates have been checked for continuity and voltage, in order to check to see if all plates were electrically connected and to make sure the plates were not touching any plates of opposite polarity. The unit has not been installed in my truck and has only been bench tested. It has been bench tested for appx 18 hours. I will say, I never had a problem with heat though. The longest it ran in succession was 7 hours and temp was 101 degrees F.

Since writing this thread, I have found a thread on another forum, www.hydrogengenerator.cc/index.php, and did a search for series/parallel cells. Which goes into the very same problems that I was having. It was basically concluded, the lower the voltage, the less surface area that can be used. You need voltage to push current and each time you introduce a set of cells in the series you lower the voltage and divide the current. Hence, the lower production. Ther is an optimum balance of surface area versus voltage in order to achieve optimum current. I believe it is best to start with a low number of cells then add cells until amperage peaks out. If you look at it this way, I had a total of 84 cells and the current of appx.12 amps was divided between those cells, which amounts to .142 amps to each cell at 2.2 volts per cell.

I now believe the optimum voltage per cell needs to be in the neighborhood of 2.5 to 3.5 volts per cell in order to achieve high production in brute force electrolosis, which means either 4 or 5 sets in a series. I will keep all those interested informed, as to my findings. I feel I have been at this long enough to make informed observations and am very thorough in my experiments, concerning dotting my "i's" and crossing my "t's". You can take this for what it is worth and if you feel there is something I have missed, please be my guest and prove me wrong. All I'm after are the answers and could care less who gets the credit. I know in my heart this thing can be done, and it is just a matter of time and persistance. I hope this description clears up any confusion, Timetowinarace. (or perhaps it adds to the confusion, for it very hard describe in words)

1973dodger

[Haywire Haywood]

Re: the 1/8 bolts. Remember that SS doesn't carry current like copper does, it's more resistive and you need a larger conductor than you would if you were using copper. You might think about upping those bolts to #10 or even 1/4" for better current flow.

Ian

[1973dodger]

Re: the 1/8 bolts. Remember that SS doesn't carry current like copper does, it's more resistive and you need a larger conductor than you would if you were using copper. You might think about upping those bolts to #10 or even 1/4" for better current flow.

Ian

I have also tried 5/16 bolts as well on an earlier setup, no difference. On another note, did you do a test of production before you sanded and after you sanded and did you notice a signifacant increase in production. I have and noticed negligible differences. Perhaps the more course, the better. But all in all I have found it to be waste of time. I was using 40 grit paper.

What is the production and amps used in your setup?

1973dodger

[Haywire Haywood]

The plates I cut for the initial cells wouldn't work. no clearance for the hardware. I had to scrap them and redesign the tabs. I haven't gotten around to cutting them out yet. I was going to do it today, but the garden told me it was time to pick green beans and can tomato sauce again. The first cell I built was an 11 plate parallel deal and I used 3/32 SS welding rod to connect them. It was glowing red in no time at all. I've got a bunch of #10 screws out in the shop now to use to connect the plates.

I read somewhere that roughing up the surface of the plates helps keep the bubbles from clinging and preventing more from forming. Supposed to up the production that way.

I'm really an armchair cowboy at this point. Read a lot, built one cell and have a basic electrical background to work with.

Ian

[JojoJaro]

Then on the opposite diagonal corner a 1/8th" hole has been drilled and tapped to accept an 1/8 threaded bolt.


This is a potential problem area. If you are simply threading a bolt thru a thin plate, it will not provide sufficient 'contact area' for current to pass. It may check good on a continuity tester, but as you increase the current, it will saturate the 'contact area' and that connection will increase in resistance. Heat will also build up at that point causing expansion of the metal further exacerbating the poor connection. This is where the resistance is coming from. No wonder your current does not increase with increased electrolyte, the resistance in these poor contact areas are limiting the max current you can deliver to the electrolytic water.

I would suggest 'soldering', 'welding' or 'brazing' this connection, although I am not familiar with how to do that. I think you may need a silver solder to braze stainless steel. Absent this solution, you may have to redesing your cell.

I suggest converting some of the plates to neutral. That would leave you with enough spacing to use nuts to compress the plate connections instead on just relying on the 'thread' to provide a good electrical contact.

[Haywire Haywood]

No brazing or soldering. Been down that road. Welding might work, but that really hinders any disassembly and reconfiguring. I'd suggest a nut and lock washer on each side of hole. This is why my first set of plates were a nogo.. no room for hardware for what I wanted to do.

Ian

[JojoJaro]

No brazing or soldering. Been down that road. Welding might work, but that really hinders any disassembly and reconfiguring. I'd suggest a nut and lock washer on each side of hole. This is why my first set of plates were a nogo.. no room for hardware for what I wanted to do.

Ian

No need for a lock washer. That will simply add uneccesary resistance. Just use 2 nuts to compress the plates. Make sure they're tight so that you make a good electrical contact with the plates and the bolt.

[timetowinarace]

I have a fairly clear picture now, thanks.

I suppose it makes some sence that the SS plates will drop some voltage on there own. I have read that before. But is it surface area that causes the drop or the number of plates in parallel? You may be correct and need to either drop a cell or drop some plates in each cell.

I'm wondering if just using two large plates per cell rather than allot of plates in parallel would have the same effect? What I mean is, I'm planning to use a spiral design with two plates and lots of surface area rather than allot of plates in parallel in a single encosure. A Zach West electrolyser. You can find it at the link I provided earlier. I can't say for sure but if Zach's design works as stated, then it almost has to be the many parallel plates and not surface area that causes the problem?

Which reminds me, If you want to keep all those parallel plates and use six or seven cells, you might consider a inexpensive inverter to up the voltage and build a simple diode bridge to return the current to DC. Not too terribly expensive. I plan to do this myself at some point.

[1973dodger]

Jojojaro,

All the comments are certainly appreciated. But as I have stated, I have checked each cell for voltage and all are well connected and as I mentioned the one thing I do not have problems with is heat due to resistance. It runs perfectly cool. One thing I forgot to mention is, I spaced the pos. connection as far apart from the neg. connection as possible, because I found on the first set of cells I built that the bolts used to electrically connect the plates were making more bubbles than the plates. I feel the reason for this is the positive seeks the shortest route to the negative or another way to put it is source seeks source. Anyway, the new connections seem to work better with the plates producing instead of the bolts.

I should have been an armchair quarterback as well, perhaps I would not have wasted so much money. HeHeHe

I,ve built the spiral coil cell as well, it is very difficult to build and get spaced properly, but it may be worth the effort in that the cell may store voltage, thusly it help with production.

1973dodger

[JojoJaro]

Jojojaro,

All the comments are certainly appreciated. But as I have stated, I have checked each cell for voltage and all are well connected and as I mentioned the one thing I do not have problems with is heat due to resistance. It runs perfectly cool.

And as I mentioned, it will test fine with your continuity tester or voltmeter. There is an electrical connection, but the contact area between the bolt and the plate is small. It will not conduct a large current. This is where the concept of current density comes in. You can only push so much current across a given area. This is its saturation current. If you attempt to push more, the resistance seen by the circuit increases. The resistance only increases as you exceed the saturation point of the contact area. That is why your resistance measurement is low, becuase your ohmeter only tries to push a little current. Saturation has not been reached. As current increases beyond saturation, resistance increases exponentially.

Heat will build up in that tiny connection. However, because you have so much water surrounding it, it will not become hot. The water is dissipating the heat buildup in these connections.

Trust me on this. I am an Electrical Engineer. But if you won't, good luck.

[countryboy18]

what type of wire do they use in power lines? JojoJaro

[timetowinarace]

Jojojaro is correct. The meter will show a connection but not how good the connection is.

I'd think it would be worth beefing the connections up to find out.

[1973dodger]

Not trying to be arguementative, but how do you explain being able to draw 172 amps with a single parallel set as has been previously mentioned in this thread. Also, it is not a good idea to run neutral plates in this type of arraingement, it will further drop the voltage. I have been the neutral route, it can be done, but a major pain to seal current. The purpose of running a series/parallel circuit is to drop voltage, no need for neutrals to drop voltage. I do respect your credentials, and your thoughts do hold some merit but I am a long ways off my 6 lpm target. What is your project and production figures? Perhaps if yours is producing well, I may need to scrap mine and copy yours. I am seeking 6 lpm at 40 or less amps.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

Jojojaro,

All the comments are certainly appreciated. But as I have stated, I have checked each cell for voltage and all are well connected and as I mentioned the one thing I do not have problems with is heat due to resistance. It runs perfectly cool. One thing I forgot to mention is, I spaced the pos. connection as far apart from the neg. connection as possible, because I found on the first set of cells I built that the bolts used to electrically connect the plates were making more bubbles than the plates. I feel the reason for this is the positive seeks the shortest route to the negative or another way to put it is source seeks source. Anyway, the new connections seem to work better with the plates producing instead of the bolts.

I should have been an armchair quarterback as well, perhaps I would not have wasted so much money. HeHeHe

I,ve built the spiral coil cell as well, it is very difficult to build and get spaced properly, but it may be worth the effort in that the cell may store voltage, thusly it help with production.

1973dodger

What was the thickness of SS for the spiral you made? I was thinking of using 304 grade SS shimstock that comes in rolls.

[timetowinarace]

Not trying to be arguementative, but how do you explain being able to draw 172 amps with a single parallel set as has been previously mentioned in this thread. Also, it is not a good idea to run neutral plates in this type of arraingement, it will further drop the voltage. I have been the neutral route, it can be done, but a major pain to seal current. The purpose of running a series/parallel circuit is to drop voltage, no need for neutrals to drop voltage. I do respect your credentials, and your thoughts do hold some merit but I am a long ways off my 6 lpm target. What is your project and production figures? Perhaps if yours is producing well, I may need to scrap mine and copy yours. I am seeking 6 lpm at 40 or less amps.

1973dodger

Good point:D.

I was hoping Jojo was on to an easy fix. Sounds like you'll have to drop some of the plates in each cell.

[justaguy]

I,m no expert but I have to agree with jojojaro. Thats why I put two small ss washers between the pos tabs with ss nuts on the outside tabs squeezing them tight together.

I worked in manufacturing mobile homes several years ago and the way they tested for electrical shorts was to send 11,000 volts through each circuit. If there was only a small connection the circuit would lose its current.

With close spacing some are using thin ss shims to help connect the current. I might mention, this was brought up on another forum about just because your tester shows connections doesn't mean it will carry the load, same difference as using small wire. Also, there is more chance of arching from the bolt to the plate.

[1973dodger]

Timetowinarace,

I used a SS duct, I am guessing it was a 22 guage. It proved to be to stiff to work with in trying to make a tight swiss roll type of cell. Perhaps, if someone had the right tools to make this, it would be a breeze to make.

1973dodger

[1973dodger]

Perhaps, when I finalize a design, I will take your advice and consider different connections. I can't seem to get a cell off of the bench these days. I just don't think what has been mentioned in suggestions will change a 1/2 lpm to 6 lpm.

1973dodger

[Haywire Haywood]

How much difference in production and amp draw did you see by drilling your plates?

Ian

[1973dodger]

How much difference in production and amp draw did you see by drilling your plates?

Ian

Haywood,

The 2 single cell I used for the comparison was I believe 2 3/4" x 3 5/8". One cell was solid and the other had 1/8" holes drilled 1/2" o.c. Both had the same spacing. I can not recall the exact amp draw, but I do remember the one with holes drew twice the amps and made 2 1/2 times the production. So this simple test made me a believer in perforated. Try it for yourself, I think you will agree.

1973dodger

[1973dodger]

O.K., I decided to do a test on one of the sets to see how much the current is limited each time I add a cell. This chart will first list the number of cells in parallel, then the total amps, then the amps per cell. Keep in mind, I could only do each test a couple seconds, in order to get an amp draw, for fear I would burn up the unit. So, I don't have measurements of what the amps settle down to, just the intial amps, of each configuration, registered.

1 cell/ 73 amps total/ 73 amps/ cell
2 cells/ 117 amps total/ 58.5 amps/ cell
4 cells/ 161 amps total/ 40.3 amps/ cell
6 cells/ 199 amps total/ 33.2 amps/ cell
8 cells/ 208 amps total/ 25.8 amps/ cell
10 cells/ 219 amps total/ 21.9 amps/ cell
12 cells/ 251 amps total/ 20.9 amps/ cell
14 cells/ 282 amps total/ 19.4 amps/ cell
16 cells/ 282 amps total/ 17.6 amps/ cell

Keep in mind all the cells were wired in parallel, all tests were performed in the same solution, all spacing and plates sizes are idenical.

What do these tests results tell you? It tells me the reason I see so many of the videos on youtube using only a single cell in each compartment of their series cell. It appears to me, I was headed in the wrong direction, by adding parallel cells to each set. I should have been looking at current used per cell, instead of current used by set of cells. The current was not only diluted by the series setup, but also by the number of parallel cells I had in each set. Now the question is, will I get the same amp draw if I put 2 cells in parallel, but in seperate baths or am I going to reach the same peak current, whether the cells are seperated or not. I'll keep those interested, informed as to my findings.

1973dodger

[Haywire Haywood]

Haywood,

The 2 single cell I used for the comparison was I believe 2 3/4" x 3 5/8". One cell was solid and the other had 1/8" holes drilled 1/2" o.c. Both had the same spacing. I can not recall the exact amp draw, but I do remember the one with holes drew twice the amps and made 2 1/2 times the production. So this simple test made me a believer in perforated. Try it for yourself, I think you will agree.

1973dodger

I'll try that on the next cell I build.

thanks,
Ian

[donnylynn]

O.K., I decided to do a test on one of the sets to see how much the current is limited each time I add a cell. This chart will first list the number of cells in parallel, then the total amps, then the amps per cell. Keep in mind, I could only do each test a couple seconds, in order to get an amp draw, for fear I would burn up the unit. So, I don't have measurements of what the amps settle down to, just the intial amps, of each configuration, registered.

1 cell/ 73 amps total/ 73 amps/ cell
2 cells/ 117 amps total/ 58.5 amps/ cell
4 cells/ 161 amps total/ 40.3 amps/ cell
6 cells/ 199 amps total/ 33.2 amps/ cell
8 cells/ 208 amps total/ 25.8 amps/ cell
10 cells/ 219 amps total/ 21.9 amps/ cell
12 cells/ 251 amps total/ 20.9 amps/ cell
14 cells/ 282 amps total/ 19.4 amps/ cell
16 cells/ 282 amps total/ 17.6 amps/ cell

Keep in mind all the cells were wired in parallel, all tests were performed in the same solution, all spacing and plates sizes are idenical.

What do these tests results tell you? It tells me the reason I see so many of the videos on youtube using only a single cell in each compartment of their series cell. It appears to me, I was headed in the wrong direction, by adding parallel cells to each set. I should have been looking at current used per cell, instead of current used by set of cells. The current was not only diluted by the series setup, but also by the number of parallel cells I had in each set. Now the question is, will I get the same amp draw if I put 2 cells in parallel, but in seperate baths or am I going to reach the same peak current, whether the cells are seperated or not. I'll keep those interested, informed as to my findings.

1973dodger

Dodger
keep in mind that at the amps you are talking about above that the internal resistance of your power source is also a factor. Some of the voltage is being dropped internal to your power source. To help keep things in perspective, when you measure your amps, also measure the voltage across your cell array.

[1973dodger]

Donnielynn,

I'm not sure where you are headed with this, you might want to expound on this subject a little more. If you are referring to watts used, I understand it is watts which gives a true reading, v x amps= watts. I can only say, the battery read before the tests at 13.4 volts. On a previously mentioned test in this thread, each cell read 2.2 volts individually when wired in series, however in this particular tests, all cells were wired in parallel, so it was getting full voltage from the battery. I did not feel comfortable taking the time to read voltage of each cell, while using this type of amperage. Kaboom!! But if I'm missing your point, please state your case, I would be very interested.

1973dodger

[1973dodger]

I'll try that on the next cell I build.

thanks,
Ian

Haywood,

I found drilling hole a major pain, I found punching the holes a better alternative, but even better than that is to purchase perforated plates on e-bay.

1973dodger

[Haywire Haywood]

Just need a drill press and access to cobalt bits. Walks right through the stainless. I don't have anything that can punch holes. At work, they have this gizmo they use for laying out rivet patterns. You just adjust it for .5 spacing and mark your holes, center punch the marks and a few minutes at the drill press and you're done. I think I'm going to end up with a Pelican 1300 case here in the not too distant future for next effort. I wish I could find a nice 8" cube built like that. That Pelican is a bit bulky. I found an 8x8x8 clear polycarbonate case with a sealed hinged lid but they wanted $135 for it :eek:

Ian

[JojoJaro]

what type of wire do they use in power lines? JojoJaro

Are you asking about big Transmission Power Lines? If so, mostly Aluminum alloy. It has more resistance than copper but can resist oxidation more than copper.

[JojoJaro]

Not trying to be arguementative, but how do you explain being able to draw 172 amps with a single parallel set as has been previously mentioned in this thread. Also, it is not a good idea to run neutral plates in this type of arraingement, it will further drop the voltage. I have been the neutral route, it can be done, but a major pain to seal current. The purpose of running a series/parallel circuit is to drop voltage, no need for neutrals to drop voltage. I do respect your credentials, and your thoughts do hold some merit but I am a long ways off my 6 lpm target. What is your project and production figures? Perhaps if yours is producing well, I may need to scrap mine and copy yours. I am seeking 6 lpm at 40 or less amps.

1973dodger

It is hard to understand your configuration accurately but if you are using 13.8V across one set of plates, the high voltage is enough to overcome the resistance in the joints allowing 172A. Also, you were doing it a short time only. It is not a big deal to push 172A over 15 poor connections for a short duration. The problem is that you are 'oversubscribing' your current density at such a poor contact area. That contact area will overheat further increasing the resistance of an already poor connection.

Instead of giving up like you've indicated in another thread, why don't you try this simple fix. I don't know what you can do with the limited spacing but maybe try brazing a few connections and see how much it will improve it. Actually, because your connections are close to each other, it might make sense to simply braze the entire bolt to all the plate at once.

You have invested too much money, time and resources already to just give up without trying this relatively simple fix.

Production is just a matter of current delivered over a plate area without exceeding the current density on the area. The Boyce design is simply a lot of plate area. Seems like you have sufficient plate area. So, your production should go up when you increase current. The reason it is not, is because you can not increase your current due to the resistance buildup in your poor connections.

[1973dodger]

JojoJaro,

The last test I mentioned on this thread was performed with individual nuts for each plate on the bolts, which were then tightened to the individual plates. Via, your suggestion for more electrical contact area.

As far as the giving up, you referred to. I think I will become an armstair quarterback for the time being until I have something noteworthy to try. Thanks for the encouragement though.

1973dodger

[donnylynn]

1973dodger
My post #60 was in response to your post #58 and the question "what do these test results tell you?"
What jumped out at me was:
With an ideal power source (which doesnt exist) the output voltage will remain constant no matter what load you put on it. i.e your first cell drew 73 amps so adding a second cell should cause it to draw 146 amps total, a third, 219 amps, etc. Since your power source is not ideal, it has an internal resistance that is in series with your cells. Because of this internal resistance the output voltage that is being applied across your parallel cells drops with the addition of each new cell. For example with one cell connected, voltage across cell is 12VDC, with 2 cells, maybe 11.5VDC, with 4 cells 10.5vdc and so on. At some point you may be loading down the supply to the point that the voltage drops low enough to affect cell production.

[JojoJaro]

JojoJaro,

The last test I mentioned on this thread was performed with individual nuts for each plate on the bolts, which were then tightened to the individual plates. Via, your suggestion for more electrical contact area.

As far as the giving up, you referred to. I think I will become an armstair quarterback for the time being until I have something noteworthy to try. Thanks for the encouragement though.

1973dodger

How were you able to install the nuts with only a few mm spacing between plates???

Did you just install it on the 2 ends of the bolt?

[1973dodger]

How were you able to install the nuts with only a few mm spacing between plates???

Did you just install it on the 2 ends of the bolt?

I had to grind down a normally 1/4" thick nut to 3/16". Every other plate attaches in one corner, it bypasses the plate of opposite polarity, via the notch originally cut out. Which leaves a 3/16th gap from pos to pos or neg to neg.

1973dodger

[overtaker]

Please explain how you wired between the separate cells ( IN THEIR OWN WATER BATH ). Did you take one wire from cell one and feed it to cell two then the other side of cell two over to cell three then the other side of cell three over to cell four etc.? Or did you run a pos. and neg. to each cell? If you already explained this sorry I'm a little thick headed sometimes. :) One more note... I believe the hydrogen generator in the space station used 2v. at like 400amps. so I'm not quite ready to dismiss the 2v. not enough theory. I hope " we all " can figure this out.

[1973dodger]

Overtaker,

Please read previous posts on this thread, as to the configuration. I do believe you will find NASA has a bigger budget than all of us, in using the various electronic toys and scientests with a bit more knowledge than most of us. By all means, try, just be careful which information you trust on the internet.

It is amusing to me how many offer advice who have not tried this particular experiment for themselves. Try this experiment, before you dismiss the data I have presented here in this thread. All it takes is a simple test, try it, then post if your results if you differ. Then we can discuss this in some detail.

1973dodger

[overtaker]

Sorry Dodger. Like I said sometimes I'm thickheaded. :) I was reading through them but it was late. I don't dismiss any data you are offering and believe it all to be 100% true as you stated. Now for the 2v. per cell theory based on my experience. I have built a few cells with 10 plates, one pos. and one neg. and all the rest unconnected. These cells performed well with low heat. With approx. 14v. off the truck , the volts should have dropped to 1.56v. each. I am also in the middle of one of these builds with separate water baths. I was going to use 8 separate cells. I may hold off now until yours is figured out, so I very much appreciate you sharing your experiment with us. One more thing, have you found anything in chapt.10 that is not accurate?

[1973dodger]

Sorry Dodger. Like I said sometimes I'm thickheaded. :) I was reading through them but it was late. I don't dismiss any data you are offering and believe it all to be 100% true as you stated. Now for the 2v. per cell theory based on my experience. I have built a few cells with 10 plates, one pos. and one neg. and all the rest unconnected. These cells performed well with low heat. With approx. 14v. off the truck , the volts should have dropped to 1.56v. each. I am also in the middle of one of these builds with separate water baths. I was going to use 8 separate cells. I may hold off now until yours is figured out, so I very much appreciate you sharing your experiment with us. One more thing, have you found anything in chapt.10 that is not accurate?

I did not mean to sound grumpy, sorry. The assumptions made as to the series cell proved not to be accurate, in that adding more plates in parallel in each set would increase production. In fact it lowers production, because it increases resistance to current. Perhaps, if one were to use a more conductive material as their electrodes, the current would double with each additional electrode added in parallel. I believe there in lies the problem. This may prove to be the difference between Nasa and the rest of us, at least in part.

Concerning the rest of the chapter, I believe the Smack's Booster is repeatable and the wasabi is, I have, however, not tried the Boyce design. (Too many electrical toys required)

1973dodger

[overtaker]

Dodger, If you still have your generator assembled, why don't you try putting 24 v. across it? I would be really curious to hear how that worked. :)

[1973dodger]

Sorry Overtaker, cell has been partially torn apart. I would believe it wuold be similar to the 3 in a series results with twice the amperage, but not for sure. Interesting thought though. I'm anxious for you to get yours going so we can compare results.

1973dodger

[overtaker]

We got to stop telling each other sorry. :D

[Haywire Haywood]

We got to stop telling each other sorry. :D

I much prefer the term "Bite Me". Hehe

Bite Me,
Ian