Poisoning

[F150]

Hate to be a downer and maybe theres a better place for this thread, but a buddy of mine was diagnosed with mild sodium hydroxide poisoning. Burns inside his throat and constant runny nose. He said he could smell a plasticy sent coming through the vents lately. He may have done something dumb.

Just read an MSDS sheet and know the symtoms so you dont write them off as eating to much spicy food from the night before.

Im not going to quit HHO but I will be more aware.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002482.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002487.htm

[Farmercal]

Good post. Good information to keep in the back of our minds just in case. Seems to me that if you have no leaks in your apparatus that all of the fumes will go out the tailpipe. I guess we need to keep checking for leaks all along the path just in case. Thanks for the info.

[volomike]

Yikes. That's what we're using -- 100% lye drain cleaner. However, we're using it at 1 tablespoon per gallon of distilled water, and we're finding it powerful enough at that. This guy might be using it at a much higher dosage. I mean, at 1 tablespoon per gallon, I can barely get even a sting from it on my hands, let alone have a problem breathing it. However, after prolonged exposure, or if someone's using much higher doses, I suppose it is possible.

However, checking for leaks sounds important. We're also storing the electrolyzer in the front near the radiator, so if there's an air intake for the passenger area for the vehicle near there, I'll be certain to check that out and prevent any fluid leaks from going in through there.

[Jaxom]

The air intake for the cabin ventilation system is outside the engine bay. if you'll look near the back of the hood around the windshield wipers you'll see the screens that keep leaves and stuff out.

The "plasticy scent" sounds like he may have melted a hole in his generator. If the electrolyte was leaking onto something hot and boiling away, I can definitely see that causing toxic fumes.

[volomike]

Aha -- it's the spillover and boiling somewhere else in the vehicle that is probably doing the thing. I think you hit it right there.

[volomike]

You know, there's all this emphasis on lye and potash, but perhaps it's safer on our health to just go back to baking soda and just use a little more of it in parts per gallon. Sure, there's corrosion, and you may have to increase amperage slightly more through your PWM, but if your electrode is built cheaply you can always rebuild it every 6 months or so -- might only take about an hour in some cases.

[Jaxom]

Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) generates poisonous gasses too, only it does it all the time. One of the byproducts of electrolysis using baking soda is carbon monoxide. After a while, all the carbon in the baking soda will be consumed by the reaction, but then the sodium that you're left with combines with the stray H and O ions to form (gasp!) sodium hydroxide.

I'll stick with my lye crystals, and mount my generator away from hot exhaust pipes.

[F150]

good call, I will try to get his full story. He did mention that his was vented on the top. If he produced more than he consumed would it have poured into the engine compartment?

Also he said he used baking soda that turned itself into sodium hydroxide?
Im not a chemist. He was running 14V. not sure on the amps.

[Stevo]

This thread makes a couple of things come to mind:

1) One reason we use NaOH is because it does not have to be added every time you add water. This would lead me to believe that the NaOH is not evaporating into the air and mixing with the HHO. So, a leak must have occurred unknowingly.

2) The other thing to consider is that NaOH is indeed evaporating off in tiny amounts, not being combusted, and then escaping through the exhaust via cracks or imperfections in the exhaust system. Depending on what type of vehicle you have, this could be very bad indeed. I had a Supra that sprung a small exhaust leak and would eep exhaust fumes into the cabin at times.

Either way, it seems that he might have been exposed to NaOH for a longer period of time than he actually thought. Just my .02

[volomike]

Okay, so it's back to lye, then. Potash -- is that better? Or does it have the same toxicity issue of lye when boiling and breathed?

[Stevo]

I was under the impression that potash is actually worse because it is poisonous to touch with your hands instead of just burning you. Of course it may be better towards polycarbonate degrading. Maybe not. I wonder if he used silicone to seal his box...

[volomike]

Is it okay to use a tube of ordinary metal to rubber gasket sealer, the kind from auto parts stores, in these devices?

[Stevo]

You mean like Permatex orange or something? I don't know. I haven't ever looked at the MSDS for that. Heat tolerance is great, but I do know that it sucks when it comes in direct contact with gasoline. Melts down to goo. NaOH might not do the same thing to Permatex, but I am not sure about that. The better choice might be something like PTFE if you want a resealable material. This might work really well for screw in fittings and such. If you want a good strong hold and chemical resistance, you might go with J-B Weld. The best J-B Weld holds strong and resists up to 600 def F intermittent. Takes 24 hours to fully strengthen though and it is dark grey in color.

[Stevo]

Also, here's a real good tidbit of info on NaOH:

http://cheville.okstate.edu/photonicslab/Safety/safety/MSDS/naoh_msds.htm

Note that NaOH has a boiling point of 216 deg F and a melting point of 25 deg F. So, from that I would assume that keeping your water temp at or below 160 deg F would not produce Lye gas so there would be little worry. What it sounds like happened to your friend is his generator/seals either cracked or his generator began to melt down (in the case of using PVC this happens > 140 deg F) and leaked electrolyte onto a surface at or above 216 deg F (possibly exhaust) and the fumes entered the cabin. Meltdown makes the most sense as you mentioned he smelt plastic coming through his vents. PVC gives off some harsh fumes that are bad for you and your oxygen sensors/catalytic converter(s).

[Walt]

Could it be he mistook his cabin air ductwork for his intake duct. It would seem that any casual air infiltration into the cabin from an electrolizer would be diluted greatly by the other air around it. It does not sound right.

[Stevo]

Could it be he mistook his cabin air ductwork for his intake duct. It would seem that any casual air infiltration into the cabin from an electrolizer would be diluted greatly by the other air around it. It does not sound right.

LOL! I would hope this wasn't the case, but I guess anything is possible. I could see it happening when considering the vast number of variables under the hood of a car/truck and the possibility that he may not have been as informed as he needed to be about his engine. I would stick with saying that safe-proofing your generator setup is of utmost importance and every possibility that comes to mind should be evaluated in all cases. Especially those that include usage of caustic chemicals.

NaOH rocks, but only when safety comes first.

<-- Wow, I sound like a chemical Smokey the Bear! :o

[bigapple]

You know, there's all this emphasis on lye and potash, but perhaps it's safer on our health to just go back to baking soda and just use a little more of it in parts per gallon. Sure, there's corrosion, and you may have to increase amperage slightly more through your PWM, but if your electrode is built cheaply you can always rebuild it every 6 months or so -- might only take about an hour in some cases.

a good thread was written about this by boyntonstu (i think thats how its spelled)... when "harmless" baking soda goes thru electrolysis, besides destroying ur plates at a much more rapid pace, it actually turns into NaOH along the way... during the entire process, the "safe" baking soda becomes harmful... pretty much any electrolyte u use will have its drawbacks... as for me, im gunna stick with not buying plates every few months and and instead will rely on one bottle of NaOH for the life of my generator

id suggest staying away from baking soda... to sum up my reasons,
1. lots of extra dollars spent on plates (cancels out ur gas savings)
2. lots of maintanence (since ferrous oxide 'rust' is produced, u get brown sludge and ur water will be disgusting)
3. ur harmless baking soda becomes harmful in the process of costing u money and dirtying ur cell
4. u will spend much less since u use much less in the process; 1 tsp NaOH vs around 2 to 2 1/2 tsp of BS is a big difference, thus, more money spent on electrolyte
5. more electrolyte must be added each time u refill the water; measurements could be wrong, and ur still wasting money buying electrolyte

[1973dodger]

F-150,

I'm sorry to hear about your freind, I know I've lost a couple of layers of skin on my hands, when handling my wet plates after being in solution. Sodium hydroxide is some wicked stuff, I wished there was some other electrlites out there without all the side effects to our body and the enviroment. We just have to be careful.

1973dodger

[volomike]

Could it be he mistook his cabin air ductwork for his intake duct. It would seem that any casual air infiltration into the cabin from an electrolizer would be diluted greatly by the other air around it. It does not sound right.

Yikes. Let's hope no one does this. Holy cow!

[bigapple]

Is it okay to use a tube of ordinary metal to rubber gasket sealer, the kind from auto parts stores, in these devices?

yea ive tried all 3... the rtv blue is pretty good... the high temp rtv red is better... but the rtv black is the best... the blue has a tendency to peel away an entire section cuz it sticks to the surrounding silicone well, which is not what u want here cuz then a leak gets bigger... the red works pretty well and can resist up to about 1000 degrees and is pretty sticky... it doesnt quite peel away completely in layers but still does it a little bit... the black is also a high temp but is the stickiest and most sturdy... i have a lexan box sealed with solvent and i have the silicone around the corners and edges on the inside to prevent leaking... works great and the electrolyte doesnt affect it

[Stevo]

@bigapple - Good and quick information as why we shouldn't use Baking Soda. I looked on Wiki and found what you were talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

Not to seem pretentious, but seems as though the brown stuff we see in our water is "ferric oxide" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(III)_oxide) and not "ferrous oxide" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrous_oxide) which is said to be black in color. Good info though.

Personally, I still have yet to install my HHO kit on my vehicle. I just want to make sure all my bases are covered or at least as many as possible. You mentioned the black Permatex being the best in holding up to electrolyte and I think it claims to be O2 sensor safe, but have you seen *any* signs of deterioration or have you seen it pulling away from the Lexan? I used J-B Weld on my polycarbonate, which is good up to 500 deg F.