Vacuum line vs. air filter

[F150]

Help?
I used to get 13mpg regardless of how and where I drove.
Now Im getting 19mpg. Of course these tests are conducted on my freeway work comute at 65mph.

BUT, I noticed this weekend I filled up did about 30 miles of in town driving only. Constantly shifting and accelerating to get into next gear. When I filled back up to do a 60 mile freeway test I had gotten 9mpg! I may need to shut off my system when I drive in town. Or find out why people plumb HHO to both vacuum lines and air filter.

I hear people say that one is for acceleration and one for idle/freeway speed.

The vacuum I spliced into draws 20inhg and drops to 15inhg when I play with the throttle linkage. I realize the vacuum decreases at throttle but enough to matter?

I also hear that HHO increases HP and it could be easily abused depending on how you drive?

[smartHHO]

Help?
I used to get 13mpg regardless of how and where I drove.
Now Im getting 19mpg. Of course these tests are conducted on my freeway work comute at 65mph.

BUT, I noticed this weekend I filled up did about 30 miles of in town driving only. Constantly shifting and accelerating to get into next gear. When I filled back up to do a 60 mile freeway test I had gotten 9mpg! I may need to shut off my system when I drive in town. Or find out why people plumb HHO to both vacuum lines and air filter.

I hear people say that one is for acceleration and one for idle/freeway speed.

The vacuum I spliced into draws 20inhg and drops to 15inhg when I play with the throttle linkage. I realize the vacuum decreases at throttle but enough to matter?

I also hear that HHO increases HP and it could be easily abused depending on how you drive?

From every site I have seen, even the water 4 gas one, they have you put it into two different areas due to the vac swaps depending on where you are at. My best guess is when you are cruising in the city, you are using more of one then the other, so what happens is you get NO HHO and thus going back to your old MPG. So, if you want to get better City MPG, then you might have to T it off to the other. When one is working, the other is not, just due to pure vac is higher on one then the other so the gas only goes one way at a time. Hope that helps. Good luck.

[Johnh]

I'd suggest you put the HHO in before the air cleaner rather than on a vacuum fitting.
This way at idle (full vacuum) it doesn't suck all the hho out of the bubbler and cell so you have none for acceleration.

I don't like teeing into two places either side of the throttle -
1 ... there is no real evidence that vacuum increases production and even if it does you get the increase at the wrong time.
2 ... you put a line in bypassing the throttle to tee the gas in two places and it creates all sorts of problems in the intake efficiency of the engine - particularly at idle.

Just try sticking the pipe up the air intake before the air cleaner and see if it resolves the problem
John

[F150]

Thanks guys,

I will try it. I had been trying to stay away from (MAF) sensors. So far Im flying under the radar. No computer or sensor modifications yet and still having good results!

[godoveryou]

Two things to consider:

There's a saying, "Velocity is king and total air flow is it's bitch."

Velocity and surface friction.

By using large diameter tubing you reduce the velocity and therefore the vac signal in the generator at idle. You also create more surface friction which will cerate lower overall flow under idle conditions. When you plumb into your intake plenum, use larger tubing. It's reverse logic. You would think bigger tube = more gas, but we are talking about velocity and vac. signal, so it's the opposite. Don't go nuts, 1/2" to 3/4" ID is fine. Is much like porting a head too much. It destroy intake air velocity from the generator, because vac. from the air line is reduced even though at idle the intake manifold vac is at it's highest. Suck through a tiny stray, the suck through a big straw. The tiny straw has a lot more velocity.

Secondly, I would plumb the primary intake line with multiple smaller diameter tubes, for improved gas distribution and velocity at all engine speeds. Also, 1/4" to 1/2" ID is fine.

I wouldn't worry so much about the ported intake vac. messing things up - the ECM isn't set up for the extra fuel anyways, so we are inherently screwing it up anyways.

Last thing to consider, and this is for Johnh. While gross production may not increase, net production may as the negative pressure in the generator causes the surface tension of the dielectric to be overcome with greater ease. In other words, instead of having the water filled with lots of little bubbles, when under negative pressure, more may pop at the surface level releasing the gases. Overwise you are depending on the surface tension to have less strength than that of gravity on the bubble and gas within.

[otrcomm]

GOY,

So let me see if I understand you correctly. Are you saying to plumb a hose both to an intake manifold vacuum port and to the air plenum? And, if this is what you are saying, then to have a smaller tube to the vacuum port and a larger tube to the air plenum?

What I was thinking of doing for my next prototype is to have two separate tubes from my bubbler. One to an intake manifold vacuum port and the other to my air plenum. By necessity, I would have a 1/4" tube to the vacuum port and a 3/8" to the air plenum. Both tubes being rubber vacuum line.

What I figure is that this configuration will "normalize" the vacuum and therefore not suck the water out of the bubbler. I connected straight from an intake manifold vacuum port once, and it did suck all the water out of the bubbler.

[godoveryou]

I'm kinda done offering advice for now. I'm sure you will figure it out, you have a lot of great people here to help you.

[otrcomm]

I was not asking for advice, I was asking you to clarify your previous statements.

My additional comments were for informational purposes and sharing experimental setups, not for "do you think this will work" feedback.

[Omega]

My personal opinion is to forget hooking up to a vacuum line. Too many hassles and max vacuum is achieved at idle, just what you don't want. A high vacuum makes it tough to keep your bubbler full because the generator has a vacuum pulled on it and it sucks the water out of the bubbler, even with a check valve.

I did it. I had nothing but trouble. Feed into the air intake near the butterfly. It's simple and it will help you keep your sanity.

As for tube size considerations, with the typical amount of flow coming out of an HHO generator, tube size doesn't matter at all. Either 1/4 or 3/8 line is plenty until you get upwards of 4 or 5 lpm; few are doing that.

[bwhite757]

Actually I have found that this setup works good on my truck:

http://expo300.com/bcwhite/images/S5000761.jpg

I don't know how many people have actually hooked up a vacuum gauge to their system, but I have. When my truck is at idle, the brake booster line pulls about 18 in/HG, the intake pulls around 2 in/HG. At 2k RPM's the brake booster line pulls 3 in/HG and the intake pulls almost 10 in/HG (my intake hookups are as close to the butterfly as you can get, using 2 3/8 in barb 90 degree elbows pointed directly into the throttle body, 1 on top, 1 on the bottom). With this setup, my vacuum inside the bubbler doesn't drop under 9 in/HG at any time from idle to WOT.

When I only had it hooked into the brake booster line, I was getting very good city mileage, but poor highway mileage. When it was just hooked into the intake it was vise versa. I came to the conclusion that both hookups were necessary to acheive ideal mileage. (HOWEVER a check valve must be put into place after the T going into the intake, otherwise most of the vacuum would pull from the intake to the brake booster line, causing almost NO vacuum to go to the generator at idle). I do use O2 extenders and MAP enhancer with my truck though, without them my mileage drops considerably with the use of HHO.

I never have a problem with liquid being pulled out of the bubbler with my setup though, only if I lock up the brakes and water sloshed to the top of the bubbler, rare occasion, and only a little bit of liquid gets sucked out...

Anyway, here's a video I posted for some people on another forum that shows my current setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiypF410uqc

Just my $0.02

[smartHHO]

Actually I have found that this setup works good on my truck:

http://expo300.com/bcwhite/images/S5000761.jpg

I don't know how many people have actually hooked up a vacuum gauge to their system, but I have. When my truck is at idle, the brake booster line pulls about 18 in/HG, the intake pulls around 2 in/HG. At 2k RPM's the brake booster line pulls 3 in/HG and the intake pulls almost 10 in/HG (my intake hookups are as close to the butterfly as you can get, using 2 3/8 in barb 90 degree elbows pointed directly into the throttle body, 1 on top, 1 on the bottom). With this setup, my vacuum inside the bubbler doesn't drop under 9 in/HG at any time from idle to WOT.

When I only had it hooked into the brake booster line, I was getting very good city mileage, but poor highway mileage. When it was just hooked into the intake it was vise versa. I came to the conclusion that both hookups were necessary to acheive ideal mileage. (HOWEVER a check valve must be put into place after the T going into the intake, otherwise most of the vacuum would pull from the intake to the brake booster line, causing almost NO vacuum to go to the generator at idle). I do use O2 extenders and MAP enhancer with my truck though, without them my mileage drops considerably with the use of HHO.

I never have a problem with liquid being pulled out of the bubbler with my setup though, only if I lock up the brakes and water sloshed to the top of the bubbler, rare occasion, and only a little bit of liquid gets sucked out...

Anyway, here's a video I posted for some people on another forum that shows my current setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiypF410uqc

Just my $0.02

Brake booster line? OMG, isn't that like dangerous incase of vac failure due to you generator? I can see you now. Some how your gen causes a vac failure while you are going down hill. No more brakes. Good luck with that. I have read several areas on different forums telling ppl not to even think about using the brake vac. Guess there is always someone that wants to take that chance. Good luck with that.

[F150]

I dont think you will lose brakes. If I understand the booster its an assist. You dont have vacuum when your truck is off but if it when rolling backward down the driveway your brakes still work. Just harder to push in. Right?

[smartHHO]

I dont think you will lose brakes. If I understand the booster its an assist. You dont have vacuum when your truck is off but if it when rolling backward down the driveway your brakes still work. Just harder to push in. Right?

Not a mechanic here. Just what I read. I know that they old style brakes were more hydrolic then vac assist. But with the new cars, your guess is as good as mine.

[bwhite757]

Whoa, calm down guys. I too was slightly concerned using the brake booster line, HOWEVER, I let it suck free air in in an empty parking lot and tested it out, no big deal, was a little harder to brake, but really not that much difference, and I'm sure Dodge isn't too worried about it, as the cap that was on the hookup was just a small cheap piece of rubber that I'm sure will currode and fall off in time anyway...

Also if you know how the brake booster works, this is really not too much of a concern. The booster only uses a partial amount of the vacuum supplied to it, during the braking process the vacuum is sealed off, and is not even used. The port on the front is a check valve, in case of a vacuum leak or engine failure, the check valve will not allow air into the booster, still giving you some boost, and you still have brakes

[smartHHO]

Whoa, calm down guys. I too was slightly concerned using the brake booster line, HOWEVER, I let it suck free air in in an empty parking lot and tested it out, no big deal, was a little harder to brake, but really not that much difference, and I'm sure Dodge isn't too worried about it, as the cap that was on the hookup was just a small cheap piece of rubber that I'm sure will currode and fall off in time anyway...

Also if you know how the brake booster works, this is really not too much of a concern. The booster only uses a partial amount of the vacuum supplied to it, during the braking process the vacuum is sealed off, and is not even used. The port on the front is a check valve, in case of a vacuum leak or engine failure, the check valve will not allow air into the booster, still giving you some boost, and you still have brakes

Appreciate the info. Glad someone has tested the speculation and put it to rest. Since last time I really worked on a car was 87-88 in High School, and they were old 70 somethings, the new car stuff is not even on my radar. Just now learning more about how the ECU system works, mainly for the HHO system. Thanks.

[F150]

yeah thanks for the confirmation!

Where are you guys getting your check valves it I choose to port mine in two places?

[Q-Hack!]

It is actually a requirement by law that the brakes still work if the engine stalls. Of course, if the engine is not running you have no vacuum.

[bwhite757]

yeah thanks for the confirmation!

Where are you guys getting your check valves it I choose to port mine in two places?

I can't find any check valves local so I've been getting them on eBay.

[otrcomm]

I like your setup!

Where did you get your check valves? I can only find 1/8" vacuum lines check valves at CarQuest.

[bwhite757]

The check valves I get are from here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-1-4-PP-Liquid-Gas-Check-Valves_W0QQitemZ280258227561QQihZ018QQcategoryZ336 21QQcmdZViewItem

They ship quick and have never had a problem with them, have bought multiple items from them...

[smartHHO]

The check valves I get are from here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-1-4-PP-Liquid-Gas-Check-Valves_W0QQitemZ280258227561QQihZ018QQcategoryZ336 21QQcmdZViewItem

They ship quick and have never had a problem with them, have bought multiple items from them...

Most excellent. I will be buying some here on payday I think. Says over a day left so should be able to get them tomorrow. Paypal for them on Friday. Thanks for the info.

[EdCaffreyMS]

This subject interests me greatly! I'm very new to HHO, but have developed a great interest in it over the past couple of months.

My first experiment was with the Water4Gas, which took my 87 22R Toyota pickup from 22 to 31mpg. (no computer in this rig, so less for me to worry about). Recently I built a smack's style booster, and initially tried to hook it up to the same vac port at the base of the carb (as I did with the Water4Gas) and within 10 seconds it sucked all the water out of the bubbler! I tried installing a "bubbler inlet" into the smack's, such as the Water4Gas version has, but it still sucked all the water out of the bubbler.
The other issue I had was the heat! The smack's version started out with 18 plates, and after about 10 miles, I was afraid it was going to melt! Cold it was pulling 17 amps, and 21 after it heated up. I didn't know what else to do, so I removed 6 plates, and tested it again. Gas production was obviously down, but it solved the heat issue.
In an attempt to solve the issue of the bubbler being sucked dry, I split the line that goes from the breather vent in the valve cover, to the base of the air cleaner, and inserted a "T". I've not driven enough to get any mileage results yet.

I had not thought of the high speed/low speed vac issues, and had not even considered the brake booster because I had read on these forums ,and other places, to not even think about doing that. But after reading this thread, it might be something I will try.

Yesterday, while wondering around Home Depot, I spotted some of the 6'X6"X4" electrical enclosures, and picked one up to experiment with building an enclosure that will better fit under my Toyota's hood. Does anybody have any experience/input on this design?

I'm kind of shocked at how much SS plate has gone up in price since HHO has gotten more popular. I'm a Blacksmith/Knifemaker by trade, and deal with steel and electrolysis everyday. In the not too distant past, you couldn't give away 300 series stainless sheet, but now a days its more expensive than 400 series stainless...which I've never seen before. (supply and demand I suppose).

Finally, just want to say Thank you to everyone here. So far whenever I've run into an issue with HHO, I've always been able to search around these forums and get some insight.

[bigapple]

Yesterday, while wondering around Home Depot, I spotted some of the 6'X6"X4" electrical enclosures, and picked one up to experiment with building an enclosure that will better fit under my Toyota's hood. Does anybody have any experience/input on this design?


yes... ive bought 3 of those boxes... all i can say is, if ur having an issue with heat rite now, problems will only begin to arise with those once u throw it under the hood... mine had a tendency to crack everywhere possible with all the expanding and contracting of the high temperatures... these are great for testing but actually using it is tough... it doesnt work well with pressure and temperature and those r two things that most people use to their advantage with hydroxy production... id say go with polycarb (lexan) material... go to an industrial plastics shop and buy a slab of it... i bought a slab of 20X24 1/4'' thick for about 40 bucks... it works great and is temperature resistant but id suggest upgrading to 3/8'' thickness... good luck