New cell - Bad results

[mario brito]

Today I installed my new unit. Runs cooler, uses less Amps and produces more.

In the bench, with my battery charger, it produces 200 ml / minute.
Installed in my car, with the engine running and after it got hot, I believe that it's producing around 400ml - 500ml / minute. This is just a guess after seeing the bubble's size and rate. The 20 Amps fuse did not blow, so it's using less then that.

The problem :

With the older cell, that produce's 100ml / minute, I got 20% gains.

With this new one, I got 5% gains. :mad: damn...

So, looks like I've passed the production limit that my engine can take, without starting to inject more fuel because of the O2 sensor.

My intake point is just before the butterfly, way after the MAF sensor that I finally discovered in my air filter housing.

I could not see any MAP sensor.

One more thing :

With 100ml / minute, the engine runs perfectly. With the new cell, in idle, I can hear the famous "pinging".

Solutions :

Start playing with the O2 sensor.
Retard the ignition point.

I really, really, really don't want to change my ECU :)

So, guys, give me all the ideas you have.

Thanks

[PT_Texas]

I just "upgraded" from a 5 plate with 2 neutrals to a 6 wallplate alternating with no neutrals and production went up, but my 14% MPG gain has dropped. I suspect the same thing as you - there is a threshold where the O2 sensor finally senses a lean condition.

I'm using a PWM and have backed the amps off to 7 cold and 12 hot amps from 10 cold to 16 hot amps.

2002 bone stock PT Cruiser w/ a 5 speed.

[godoveryou]

Yes, you have to modify your O2 Signal. Too much oxygen present and the ECU code is in constant "Hunting" for 14.7:1. That's why you are pinging on occasion as well.

[timetowinarace]

Solution 3: Lower your hho production.

From Patrick Kelly:

Dealing with the Oxygen Sensor.
It should be stressed that when a hydroxy booster is used with a vehicle, it has an optimum rate of hydroxy gas feed. This rate gives the highest possible mpg for the vehicle. If a greater rate of hydroxy gas feed is provided, then the hydroxy gas ceases to act as an igniter and burn-enhancer for the normal vehicle fuel, and starts to become a second fuel in its own right. While this sounds as if it is all to the good, that is actually not the case, certainly in the earlier stages which are within the gas-producing range of the typical booster.

The first problem is that the vehicle’s Electronic Control Unit which manages the fuel injection, detects the different exhaust quality and interprets it as indicating an air/fuel mix which is too lean. To offset this, the ECU starts injecting excess fuel into the engine, and the resulting mpg can actually be slightly lower than before the booster was fitted. The best way to deal with this is to reduce the hydroxy gas production rate by lowering the current through the booster. As all vehicle engines react differently, it is worth while determining the optimum gas rate for your actual vehicle. This can be done by setting a very low hydroxy gas rate and driving until several gallons of fuel have been used. The mpg for that particular gas rate is written down and the test repeated with slightly increased gas flow rates for each of the following tests. This will show the best hydroxy gas flow rate for your vehicle and style of driving. This flow rate is likely to be quite low, as the designer of the very simple ‘Hotsabi’ booster is getting a 50% mpg improvement on his 5 liter engine and the Hotsabi gas output is likely to be around the 0.5 lpm production rate.

There is an alternative method. Older vehicles which are fitted with a carburettor will see an immediate improvement, especially is smaller main jets are fitted to the carburettor, but more recent vehicles which come with ECU computer control of the fuel sent to the engine may need some help. When a booster is attached to the engine, it causes the fuel burn inside the cylinders to be greatly improved, with a corresponding improvement in engine performance. Unfortunately, the fuel computer is expecting the same amount of unburnt oxygen to come out of the engine, and when it doesn’t detect it, the computer increases the fuel flow rate in an attempt to get back to it’s normal, inefficient method of running. That action can cancel the mpg improvement produced by the electrolyzer unless something is done to adjust the operation of the computer.

In the most simple terms, most vehicles which have an Electronic Control Unit (“ECU”) to control the fuel flow are fitted with one of two types of exhaust sensor. The majority have a “narrowband” sensor while the remainder have a “wideband” sensor. The ideal mix of air to fuel is considered to be 14.7 to 1. A narrowband sensor only responds to mixtures from about 14.2 to 1 through 14.9 to 1. The sensor operates by comparing the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas to the amount of oxygen in the air outside the vehicle and it generates an output voltage which moves rapidly between 0.2 volts where the mixture is too lean, and 0.8 volts when it passes below the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel mix point where the mixture is too rich (as indicated by the graph shown below). The ECU increases the fuel feed when the signal level is 0.2 volts and decreases it when the signal voltage is 0.8 volts. This causes the signal voltage to switch regularly from high to low and back to high again as the computer attempts to match the amount of “too lean” time to the amount of “too rich” time.





A simple control circuit board can be added to alter the sensor signal and nudge the fuel computer into producing slightly better air/fuel mixes. Unfortunately, there is a severe downside to doing this. If, for any reason, the fuel mix is set too high for an extended period, then the excess fuel being burnt in the catalytic converter can raise the temperature there high enough to melt the internal components of the converter. On the other hand, if the circuit board is switched to a mix which is too lean, then the engine temperature can be pushed high enough to damage the valves, which is an expensive mistake.

Over-lean running can occur at different speeds and loads. Joe Hanson recommends that if any device for making the mix leaner is fitted to the vehicle, then the following procedure should be carried out. Buy a “type K” thermocouple with a 3-inch stainless steel threaded shank, custom built by ThermX Southwest of San Diego. This temperature sensor can measure temperatures up to 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit (980 degrees Centigrade). Mount the thermocouple on the exhaust pipe by drilling and tapping the pipe close to the exhaust manifold, just next to the flange gasket. Take a cable from the thermocouple into the driver’s area and use a multimeter to show the temperature.

Drive the vehicle long enough to reach normal running temperature and then drive at full speed on a highway. Note the temperature reading at this speed. When a leaner mix is used, make sure that the temperature reading under exactly the same conditions does not exceed 180 degrees Fahrenheit (100 degrees Centigrade) above the pre-modification temperature.

David Andruczyk recommends an alternative method of avoiding engine damage through over-lean fuel/air mixtures, namely, replacing the narrowband oxygen sensor with a wideband sensor and controller.

[mario brito]

I thought about that too.

And maybe I will follow that route. I already assembled a unit that can provide more hho then my car can use, so, I'll find the optimal output, and stop there.

As I jumped from 100 ml / minute to about 400ml or even 500ml, I've got a lot of trials to do, untill I find the right production for my car.

I'll reduce the production to 200ml lowering the NaOH concentration, wich will lower the temperature and the Amps.

Today I finnally bought 316's SS plates and will try to improve my unit not to produce more, but to produce the amount I want, with the lowest temperature possible and as small as possible.

Thanks