Thermodynamic Explanation of why HHO improves MPG

[JojoJaro]

Folks, I posted this explanation in another forum. Thought I'd post it here.

HHO injection DOES WORK. Naysayers of the process are most of the time people with no engineering training and always stem from an incomplete (and frankly faulty) understanding of the "Conservation of Energy" principle (Simplistically aka 1st Law of Thermodynamics).

The reasoning always centers on the BTU content of HHO and how miniscule it is compared to the BTU of diesel, that it couldn't possibly have any significant effect. This would be true if indeed HHO was being used as a 'fuel' for its BTU content. In fact, HHO is not being used that way. HHO is not being combusted for its BTU content. HHO is injected for its effect on the combustion properties of the primary fuel. HHO significantly modifies the combustion characteristic of the primary fuel. Injection of HHO causes the flame to be more 'homogeneous' and causes faster combustion of the fuel. This is not surprising since hydrogen flame propagation rates are 300% faster than that of diesel. Introduction of HHO causes the entire fuel charge to be combusted significantly faster and more homogeneously. Complete combustion occurs faster, with more equalized temperature gradients within the cylinder resulting in more thermal efficiency. (It has been proven time and time again how HHO injection causes less NOx emissions. This is due to the more homogeneous combustion.)

Now, let's look at the real engineering behind how faster combustion could improve engine efficiency.

The link below explains the 'Ideal' Diesel Thermodynamic Cycle. (Please understand that the steps of this Diesel Cycle is NOT the four steps of the engine: Power, Exhuast, Intake and Compressions strokes. Step 2-3 and 3-4 are steps that occur during the Power stroke, 4-1 and 1-2 occurs during the Compression stroke. The Exhaust and Intake strokes are NOT thermodynamic steps.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_cycle

Study carefully the formula for 'Maximum Thermal Efficiency'. This formula governs the amount of 'work' that can be derived during the power stroke.

Combustion of injected diesel occurs during the Adiabatic step (points 2 to 3). This Adiabatic step occurs between Volume3 and Volume2. Note that Volume3 is always greater than Volume2. during the movement of the piston downward. Note that the closer Volume3 is to Volume2, the 'cutoff ratio' Volume3/Volume2 is closer to the value 1. (It is always greater than 1 since V3 is always greater than V2).

Examine the formula again very very carefully this time. Note that the Efficiency increases as the cutoff ratio V3/V2 is closer to the value of 1. The higher this ratio is, the less Thermal Efficiency can be achieved.

How is this relevant to HHO injection? Very simple. HHO injection causes the fuel mix to burn faster. With HHO, the Diesel fuel mix completely burns before the piston has a chance to move downward. What this means is V3 is only slightly larger than V2. The cutoff ratio then becomes closer to 1, hence Thermal Efficiency is higher. More work is achieved, more power = more MPG.

The diagram is of course for an Ideal Diesel Cycle. The Otto Thermodynamic Cycle for gas engines is similar.

There you have it, a scientific explanation of why HHO injection works.

[mario brito]

Just want to say : Good post !

Keep'em coming :)

Thanks

[buffordboy23]

Very nice explanation. Do you have any source links or citations that go into more detail or data about how hydrogen affect burn duration?

Also, does your description require the engine to be lean? I ask this because one of my sources from an academic science journal cites another source which claims that the effect that hydrogen has on the burn duration of gasoline is not significant for stoichiometric ratios greater than > 0.85. Since I can't access this article, I can't judge the results of these authors.

Thanks.

P.S. I do agree that many naysayers use refutations that are overly simplistic.

[JojoJaro]

Very nice explanation. Do you have any source links or citations that go into more detail or data about how hydrogen affect burn duration?

Not off hand. I'll look for it.



Also, does your description require the engine to be lean? I ask this because one of my sources from an academic science journal cites another source which claims that the effect that hydrogen has on the burn duration of gasoline is not significant for stoichiometric ratios greater than > 0.85. Since I can't access this article, I can't judge the results of these authors.


The point of HHO injection is making whatever fuel charge there is to burn faster. Many people have this incomplete understanding that if you are completely burning your fuel charge (100% burn), you are achieving the maximum efficiency there is. That is not true. The thermodynamic equations reveal that not only is 100% burn important, but how fast you achieve that 100% burn matters a lot. The faster you achieve 100% burn, the higher your Thermal Efficiency is.

Anyways, the leaning of gasoline appears to be a prerequisite for achieving MPG gains. The reason why cars don't burn lean, is the NOx emissions. The leaner the mixture, the hotter it burns (This sounds counterintuitive, but the concentration of O2 relative to the fuel has something to do with it.) The hotter the burn, the more NOx emissions. So, car manufacturers have to do stoichoimetric mixtures to try to manage NOx emissions.

Without any HHO, current cars can currently achieve significant MPG gains by just leaning the mixture. However, Uncle Sam won't let you do it. So, what HHO does is achieve lean burn with low NOx emissions.

[timetowinarace]

So what happens if you inject hho into an existing engine system without leaning it? Meaning, using the same a/f ratio. Is there no change in MPG's?

If that is the case, HHO does not work. Leaning the engine increases MPG's not the hho.

[buffordboy23]

JojoJaro,

You are a wealth of knowledge. You said that the leaner the mixture, the hotter that it burns. I currently agree with this to a point, but is this still true even if we add air beyond what is necessary to combust 100% of the gasoline? I thought that since no more chemical energy from gasoline can be released, the extra air would absorb more heat to do work on the piston, and thus increase the thermal efficiency as well, while the burn temperature could get no hotter unless extra gasoline is introduced.

[JojoJaro]

So what happens if you inject hho into an existing engine system without leaning it? Meaning, using the same a/f ratio. Is there no change in MPG's?

If that is the case, HHO does not work. Leaning the engine increases MPG's not the hho.

Injecting HHO without leaning will increase power. And if the driver does not 'abuse' this newfound power, then MPG should increase. But, we know from experience, that if more power is available, the driver then tends to take advantage of this new power negating any MPG gains that would have been possible.

However, we know of course, that the reality is more complex this. The behaviour of the ECM makes understanding the various interactions very complicated.

[Smith03Jetta]

The guy's correct... unless you have an ECU controlled engine using O2 or Lambda sensors. Still has the same effect on the combustion process but the computer counters your moves like Bobby Fisher on a chess board.

[JojoJaro]

JojoJaro,

You are a wealth of knowledge. You said that the leaner the mixture, the hotter that it burns. I currently agree with this to a point, but is this still true even if we add air beyond what is necessary to combust 100% of the gasoline? I thought that since no more chemical energy from gasoline can be released, the extra air would absorb more heat to do work on the piston, and thus increase the thermal efficiency as well, while the burn temperature could get no hotter unless extra gasoline is introduced.


OK, combustion science is more complicated than what we can try to explain in a forum. Many people have written whole volumes of books just trying to explain what exactly happens inside the cylinder. Today, countless computing hours are being expended to try to simulate the combustion process. So, any explanation that will fit a forum reply will by any means be incomplete and simplistic. But let me try to explain it.

According to Bosch (in his book Diesel-Engine Management Manual), localized 'air charges' causes pockets of extremely hot burning diesel and air. These pockets erupts inside the cylinder creating extreme temperature gradients between small spaces inside the cylinder. The boundaries of these pockets, create NOx and PM (Particulate Matter - soot) emissions. Homogenizing these pockets is the function of EGR. EGR reinjects inert gases (CO and CO2 - gases that will not initiate oxidation like O2) to homogenize the air pockets. Localized air charges that create these pockets are bad. This means that the fuel charge is burning randomly causing slower more uneven 100% burn. HHO tends to homogenize these pockets that lowers NOx emissions

Leaning your fuel charge mixture tends to promote the creation of these pockets. Why? because when leaning your mixture, you will end up with regions of space that has too diluted fuel concentrations and regions with enough concentrations to ignite. The regions with enough fuel concertrations will ignite first creating these pockets of hot air, creating more NOx. Adding more fuel tends to make all parts of the space concentrated enough to ignite simultaneously. Clear as mud? That is the theory of course. Since, no one can actually see the insides of the cylinder during combustion.

So, while you are correct in saying that the energy for the heat comes from the fuel, the distribution of how this energy is released plays a major role in efficiency. The pockets and temperature gradients will kill your efficiency. Why? because heat will flow from hotter regions to cooler regions increasing Entrophy. (2nd Law of Thermodynamics). The more entrophy you create in your process, the less work you extract out of it. So, not only is speed of release of this energy important, but also distribution of how it is released. The theory of course says, that HHO injection causes both faster and more homogeneous release of the fuel BTU.

Think of 10 men pushing as opposed to 8 men pushing, and 2 men pushing against each other. Energy of the 2 men pushing each other is lost. Temperature gradients are like these 2 men pushing against each other. This is entrophy increase. Entrophy is 'randomness'. Random heat flows are not usefull for extracting work.

[timetowinarace]

OK, combustion science is more complicated than what we can try to explain in a forum. Many people have written whole volumes of books just trying to explain what exactly happens inside the cylinder. Today, countless computing hours are being expended to try to simulate the combustion process. So, any explanation that will fit a forum reply will by any means be incomplete and simplistic. But let me try to explain it.

According to Bosch (in his book Diesel-Engine Management Manual), localized 'air charges' causes pockets of extremely hot burning diesel and air. These pockets erupts inside the cylinder creating extreme temperature gradients between small spaces inside the cylinder. The boundaries of these pockets, create NOx and PM (Particulate Matter - soot) emissions. Homogenizing these pockets is the function of EGR. EGR reinjects inert gases (CO and CO2 - gases that will not initiate oxidation like O2) to homogenize the air pockets. Localized air charges that create these pockets are bad. This means that the fuel charge is burning randomly causing slower more uneven 100% burn. HHO tends to homogenize these pockets that lowers NOx emissions

Leaning your fuel charge mixture tends to promote the creation of these pockets. Why? because when leaning your mixture, you will end up with regions of space that has too diluted fuel concentrations and regions with enough concentrations to ignite. The regions with enough fuel concertrations will ignite first creating these pockets of hot air, creating more NOx. Adding more fuel tends to make all parts of the space concentrated enough to ignite simultaneously. Clear as mud? That is the theory of course. Since, no one can actually see the insides of the cylinder during combustion.

So, while you are correct in saying that the energy for the heat comes from the fuel, the distribution of how this energy is released plays a major role in efficiency. The pockets and temperature gradients will kill your efficiency. Why? because heat will flow from hotter regions to cooler regions increasing Entrophy. (2nd Law of Thermodynamics). The more entrophy you create in your process, the less work you extract out of it. So, not only is speed of release of this energy important, but also distribution of how it is released. The theory of course says, that HHO injection causes both faster and more homogeneous release of the fuel BTU.

Think of 10 men pushing as opposed to 8 men pushing, and 2 men pushing against each other. Energy of the 2 men pushing each other is lost. Temperature gradients are like these 2 men pushing against each other. This is entrophy increase. Entrophy is 'randomness'. Random heat flows are not usefull for extracting work.

So how can lean be good? I don't get it.

HHO will help correct the 'pockets'. Yes?

Even so, hho in a non lean cylinder would be even better. No?

I'm lost.

disregarding ecu's and driving style (it seems I need to specify or they will come up again) I don't see how lean is better.

[kiwibrick]

I will have to find the document of a study I read, I think it is on my comp at home.

It is a study in a European country to do with adding Hydrogen to the natural gas fuel of stationary power generators.
They had some pretty sophisticated instruments including some in cylinder measuring and found that the introduction of Hydrogen didn't decrease the length of the combustion but it did decrease the ignition time (time between spark and fuel ignition) of the fuel/air mix.

[JojoJaro]

So how can lean be good? I don't get it.

HHO will help correct the 'pockets'. Yes?

Even so, hho in a non lean cylinder would be even better. No?

I'm lost.

disregarding ecu's and driving style (it seems I need to specify or they will come up again) I don't see how lean is better.


Running lean is good to an extent. Too lean and your engine stalls. HHO allows you to push leaness to the extremes not possible without it. The leaner, the better MPGs. That's how I understand it.

Running lean is not allowed, becuase it produces NOx way beyond emissions regs. However, evidence suggests that adding HHO lowers these NOx emissions when running lean. So essentially, HHO allows you to run your calibrations more aggresively (more MPG) while complying with regulations.

Yes, adding HHO in a non-lean situation will also improve power and MPG, if the driver can stop from taking advantage of the increased power. And if the ECM does not counter your HHO.

[buffordboy23]

OK, combustion science is more complicated than what we can try to explain in a forum. Many people have written whole volumes of books just trying to explain what exactly happens inside the cylinder. Today, countless computing hours are being expended to try to simulate the combustion process. So, any explanation that will fit a forum reply will by any means be incomplete and simplistic. But let me try to explain it.

You did a great job. Thanks for your time. I clearly see the mechanism and science for why hydrogen allows an engine to run leaner.

Your right about the lower emissions, even others besides NOx, when hydrogen is added under lean conditions, as long as sufficient hydrogen is inputted--I have many sources that show this.

[timetowinarace]

The one thing I do know is that lean will kill an engine. Gas or diesel. I can afford the extra $ for a few more gallons of fuel. Buying or rebuilding a motor due to being cheap at the pump doesn't sit well with me.

For a booster, I HIGHLY recomend not leaning out the fuel. Enjoy the extra power, fuel economy that comes without a lean condition.

Unless of course you have a throw away test vehicle.

[havocs29]

Folks, I posted this explanation in another forum. Thought I'd post it here.

HHO injection DOES WORK. Naysayers of the process are most of the time people with no engineering training and always stem from an incomplete (and frankly faulty) understanding of the "Conservation of Energy" principle (Simplistically aka 1st Law of Thermodynamics).

The reasoning always centers on the BTU content of HHO and how miniscule it is compared to the BTU of diesel, that it couldn't possibly have any significant effect. This would be true if indeed HHO was being used as a 'fuel' for its BTU content. In fact, HHO is not being used that way. HHO is not being combusted for its BTU content. HHO is injected for its effect on the combustion properties of the primary fuel. HHO significantly modifies the combustion characteristic of the primary fuel. Injection of HHO causes the flame to be more 'homogeneous' and causes faster combustion of the fuel. This is not surprising since hydrogen flame propagation rates are 300% faster than that of diesel. Introduction of HHO causes the entire fuel charge to be combusted significantly faster and more homogeneously. Complete combustion occurs faster, with more equalized temperature gradients within the cylinder resulting in more thermal efficiency. (It has been proven time and time again how HHO injection causes less NOx emissions. This is due to the more homogeneous combustion.)

Now, let's look at the real engineering behind how faster combustion could improve engine efficiency.

The link below explains the 'Ideal' Diesel Thermodynamic Cycle. (Please understand that the steps of this Diesel Cycle is NOT the four steps of the engine: Power, Exhuast, Intake and Compressions strokes. Step 2-3 and 3-4 are steps that occur during the Power stroke, 4-1 and 1-2 occurs during the Compression stroke. The Exhaust and Intake strokes are NOT thermodynamic steps.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_cycle

Study carefully the formula for 'Maximum Thermal Efficiency'. This formula governs the amount of 'work' that can be derived during the power stroke.

Combustion of injected diesel occurs during the Adiabatic step (points 2 to 3). This Adiabatic step occurs between Volume3 and Volume2. Note that Volume3 is always greater than Volume2. during the movement of the piston downward. Note that the closer Volume3 is to Volume2, the 'cutoff ratio' Volume3/Volume2 is closer to the value 1. (It is always greater than 1 since V3 is always greater than V2).

Examine the formula again very very carefully this time. Note that the Efficiency increases as the cutoff ratio V3/V2 is closer to the value of 1. The higher this ratio is, the less Thermal Efficiency can be achieved.

How is this relevant to HHO injection? Very simple. HHO injection causes the fuel mix to burn faster. With HHO, the Diesel fuel mix completely burns before the piston has a chance to move downward. What this means is V3 is only slightly larger than V2. The cutoff ratio then becomes closer to 1, hence Thermal Efficiency is higher. More work is achieved, more power = more MPG.

The diagram is of course for an Ideal Diesel Cycle. The Otto Thermodynamic Cycle for gas engines is similar.

There you have it, a scientific explanation of why HHO injection works.

I do know HHO works. And I know it works on older diesels also. But with the newer diesels have have spoken to many people who have a generator and none of them are experiencing any gains. I am trying to find out why.

[JojoJaro]

I do know HHO works. And I know it works on older diesels also. But with the newer diesels have have spoken to many people who have a generator and none of them are experiencing any gains. I am trying to find out why.

I strongly believe that the pilot injection is the culprit on why HHO injection does not increase MPG on newer diesels. Those with common rail designs all have pilot injections to some extent. The newer common rails like 07 and newer Cummins that have Piezo Injectors even have multiple pilot injections.

Find out what type of engine they have. Or just tell me which truck and what year they have.

[havocs29]

I strongly believe that the pilot injection is the culprit on why HHO injection does not increase MPG on newer diesels. Those with common rail designs all have pilot injections to some extent. The newer common rails like 07 and newer Cummins that have Piezo Injectors even have multiple pilot injections.

Find out what type of engine they have. Or just tell me which truck and what year they have.

I think your right. Since I have two batteries, I'm going to split the load and build another generator. Maybe if enough HHO is produced it will make a difference. But I think another induction point should be established other than the air intake.

[timetowinarace]

I think your right. Since I have two batteries, I'm going to split the load and build another generator. Maybe if enough HHO is produced it will make a difference. But I think another induction point should be established other than the air intake.

I think you'll find the amount of hho is the difference in '06 and older trucks and nothing else.

'07 and newer, it appears the new emisions on these truck may pose a problem simular to what gas ecu engines are seeing.

Niether of these are facts. They are opinion.

[JojoJaro]

'07 and newer, it appears the new emisions on these truck may pose a problem simular to what gas ecu engines are seeing.


Nah... the new emissions equipment on the 07 and newer trucks consist of the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). That is the only difference between 06 and 07 Duramax emissions-wise.

The DPF is simply a soot filter. From time to time, the ECM creates post injection to increase EGT so that it will burn up the soot buildup in the DPF to clear it.

The DPF does not have an oxygen sensor like in gasser. So, HHO is still fine with 07 and newer, until 2010 where we start seeing Urea injection. I think it will be benefitial though, cause Urea Injection is for NOx reduction and HHO reduces NOx significantly, so it might end up less Urea is being used.

[Painless]

Not sure if it will help you guys, but here goes anyway. I have a 2006 gas engined ram and also a copy of the manufacturers workshop manual in pdf:

The Fuel Injectoin - Diesel section lists the following sensors:

Accelerator pedal position
Camshaft position
Crankshaft position
Temperature/Pressure-intake (located in air cleaner)
Temperature/Pressure-MAP (top of intake manifold)
MAP (this is the same sensor as the Temp/Pres-intake, it's a dual function sensor)

Hopefully this will help with your sensor questions.

[JojoJaro]

Not sure if it will help you guys, but here goes anyway. I have a 2006 gas engined ram and also a copy of the manufacturers workshop manual in pdf:

The Fuel Injectoin - Diesel section lists the following sensors:

Accelerator pedal position
Camshaft position
Crankshaft position
Temperature/Pressure-intake (located in air cleaner)
Temperature/Pressure-MAP (top of intake manifold)
MAP (this is the same sensor as the Temp/Pres-intake, it's a dual function sensor)

Hopefully this will help with your sensor questions.

Sounds right! Although I don't see a MAF sensor. Must be the same as the Pressure-Intake sensor.

That is also what I have for my Duramax. Although I have 3 accelerator sensors. It's triple redundant.

And I added an EGT gauge, and an EFILive Computer where I can log the readings on all these sensors.

[precaster1@msn.com]

I do know HHO works. And I know it works on older diesels also. But with the newer diesels have have spoken to many people who have a generator and none of them are experiencing any gains. I am trying to find out why.

My early 07 Duramax gets 17.8 with 3/4 l. a minute when i reset the mpg guage and drive 6 miles to an intersection, when the 3 gens are turned off it gets 14.5,no poop. But the lye i use makes a lot of rust, i thought it didn't do that. any ideas?

[precaster1@msn.com]

Nah... the new emissions equipment on the 07 and newer trucks consist of the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). That is the only difference between 06 and 07 Duramax emissions-wise.

The DPF is simply a soot filter. From time to time, the ECM creates post injection to increase EGT so that it will burn up the soot buildup in the DPF to clear it.

The DPF does not have an oxygen sensor like in gasser. So, HHO is still fine with 07 and newer, until 2010 where we start seeing Urea injection. I think it will be benefitial though, cause Urea Injection is for NOx reduction and HHO reduces NOx significantly, so it might end up less Urea is being used.

Where is this?

[precaster1@msn.com]

Sounds right! Although I don't see a MAF sensor. Must be the same as the Pressure-Intake sensor.

That is also what I have for my Duramax. Although I have 3 accelerator sensors. It's triple redundant.

And I added an EGT gauge, and an EFILive Computer where I can log the readings on all these sensors.

Have the egt and efielive helped, how much were they? Have any of the programmers helped mpg.

[timetowinarace]

I use the Bullydog Tripledog programmer and it has helped mpg's on my truck. I also modified the air box and gutted the cat. I've gotten a bit over 21mpg hiway with it. No hho. Today I'm taking it on a trip and have prepared my hho unit. Hopefully it won't have major heat issues. I rarely get an oportunity use the truck withoutt the trailer so I don't have accurate MPG's with hho. Pulling the trailer, I see about a 1mpg gain with hho wich I consider very good. But due to disparity in wieght and terain the accuracy of that could be considered questionable also.

[JojoJaro]

Where is this?

The DPF is in the Exhaust pipe. It looks like a cylinder, I would say maybe 8" in diameter and 10" in length. It is before the muffler.

Many people have removed the DPF and tune out the regeneration part.

If you have an 07 'Classic' truck, it will still have an LBZ engine and hence, no DPF. Only 07 LMM truck have DPF.

[JojoJaro]

Have the egt and efielive helped, how much were they? Have any of the programmers helped mpg.

I run WVO, and my van is heavily loaded (books, equipment and 150 gallon WVO tank), so I think I get about 15 MPG. I have not been able to test my MPG for a while since I started running WVO since I do not have a flowmeter for measuring my WVO input. When I tested it a long time ago, it was getting 19 MPG for diesel and 17 MPG for Biodiesel.

EGT is about $200 but you have to install it yourself. EFILive is $750 and a small laptop computer for logging everything. You can run EFILive without the laptop if you do not want logging.

[precaster1@msn.com]

I use the Bullydog Tripledog programmer and it has helped mpg's on my truck. I also modified the air box and gutted the cat. I've gotten a bit over 21mpg hiway with it. No hho. Today I'm taking it on a trip and have prepared my hho unit. Hopefully it won't have major heat issues. I rarely get an oportunity use the truck withoutt the trailer so I don't have accurate MPG's with hho. Pulling the trailer, I see about a 1mpg gain with hho wich I consider very good. But due to disparity in wieght and terain the accuracy of that could be considered questionable also.

Did the gutless cat make it sound different and did it help mpg? How much mpg gain did the bully give you? I meant how much did it help? I hate typing.

[timetowinarace]

Did the gutless cat make it sound different and did it help mpg? How much mpg gain did the bully give you? I meant how much did it help? I hate typing.

No mpg gain gutting the cat. A bit lower egt's though without the restriction. Yes it sounds different. A kind of deeper hollow sound. I like it. I plan to delete the muffler at some point.

Empty the truck get's 2 MPG's better with the Bullydog set on performance. I got 1MPG increase modifying the air box. That consisted of simply drilling some 1" holes in the bottom of it(below the air cleaner) and using an Amsoil high flow air filter. Cheaper and just as effective as installing an aftermarket air intake.

I did all of this when I bought the truck new. No problems yet. (some people worry about the programer hurting the truck) 41,000+ miles, mostly under heavy load. Of course relatively few of these are with hho.

[havocs29]

Did the gutless cat make it sound different and did it help mpg? How much mpg gain did the bully give you? I meant how much did it help? I hate typing.

I also have the bullydog programmer. I have the PMT to be exact. It was the greatest investment so far. It gave me a 4mpg gain plus power is awesome.

[c02cutter]

I don't have a diesel, but there is a new sensor that is going into the new Cummings, Caterpillar, and a couple others that I know about. My company dose the laser welding for the housings if these sensors. They are exhaust temperature sensors, my understanding is one goes just after the turbo, the second goes into the downstream exhaust. From the 2 temperature readings it sends data back to the computer and makes adjustments to the fuel flow. It is part of an EPA thing to clean up diesel trucks. I have been doing these at 600,000 a year for 2 years and it is ramping up.

Just a heads up of something else to look for when dealing with a diesel. I can post some pictures of the housings so that a guy with a new Cummings can look to see if he has them in place. I do not know how they respond to HHO, but this may be a thing to look at on a new diesel. Just another thing that has to be over ridden...lol

[havocs29]

I don't have a diesel, but there is a new sensor that is going into the new Cummings, Caterpillar, and a couple others that I know about. My company dose the laser welding for the housings if these sensors. They are exhaust temperature sensors, my understanding is one goes just after the turbo, the second goes into the downstream exhaust. From the 2 temperature readings it sends data back to the computer and makes adjustments to the fuel flow. It is part of an EPA thing to clean up diesel trucks. I have been doing these at 600,000 a year for 2 years and it is ramping up.

Just a heads up of something else to look for when dealing with a diesel. I can post some pictures of the housings so that a guy with a new Cummings can look to see if he has them in place. I do not know how they respond to HHO, but this may be a thing to look at on a new diesel. Just another thing that has to be over ridden...lol

The reason for those sensors is because with the new emission motors they have a particulate filter. When they go on it is like a self cleaning oven. They get so hot that there have been reports of flames coming out of the tailpipe up to 3 ft long. So when the filter activates the sensors will detect the heat and the computer will adjust what it has to to keep the temperatures to a minimal. Diesels are extremely advanced. There getting more advanced by the year.

[c02cutter]

Like I said, I only know I do these sensors and was bringing it to light. I have no experience with HHO and diesels other than what I have read. Just know these are being put in place now, and might have the possibility of being an issue. As they do input to the computer.